Author Topic: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.  (Read 65639 times)

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Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #270 on: June 26, 2014, 08:51:34 PM »
Pages 825=828 statement of CI Vitor Matos

- As you know, yesterday, 8 May 2007 at 23h45, the undersigned joined a search effected by the GNR dog team which targeted Blocks 5 and 4 of the Ocean Club resort and adjacent areas, with the objective of trying to reconstruct the possible route taken by the missing child on 3 May 2007.
- The search was led by GNR 1st Sergeant A.F.Silva, head of the search and rescue team who coordinated all the work done by the "dual track" [method] which was performed by two tracker dogs with their handler, GNR officer P.Fernandes.
- The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area, it being sure that in terms of timing they said that after 48 hours from the event it is difficult to obtain positive results. Concerning urban areas, or areas with identical characteristics, they advised that due to the fact of there being a large number of odours in the air, it becomes impossible for the tracker dog to manage to identify/locate the "target smell", because it is diffuse [dispersed; broken up], [the dog] ending up becoming confused and indicating its disinterest in continuing the search.


- Further, in an informal conversation with the GNR team, they advised that on the 4 May they had done the same work, with no control over the direction taken by the dogs, i.e. they were not directed into the buildings, it being certain that they took the same route described above, with the same attitude, losing the trail next to the car park of Block 6.

*Snip*
- The GNR team performing the search had in its possession, packed in a plastic bag, a towel supposedly used to clean the missing youngster - Madeleine McCann - furnished by her parents.

*Snip* (final paragraph)
- According to the GNR team and after the work was finished, they gave their opinion about what had happened, saying it is difficult the be precise about the dogs' achievement given the conditioning factors involved - smells, time of day, area concerned - adding still more the degree of uncertainty, because the clues revealed by the dogs can only be significant by confirming if in an area of intense odour, the intended [hunted; sought after] smell is found.
- Laid bare, in their understanding, the interest demonstrated by the dog at the doors of some apartments can not signify that the scent of the missing child was detected, but solely a mere confirmation and going off track [straying], because it never showed the handler that it had found the intended scent.



Whilst much of the information in the above statement was the Chief Inspector's interpretation of the information relayed by the dog handler's he accompanied on the second s&r dogs' operation, I feel that the "48 hour" point for living scent is as significant as the 28day time limit for cadaver odour.
I question why the dogs could follow the same ground route on 2 occasions 4 days apart (aside from signalling at the upper apartments). It sugests to me that the scent came from an individual who was using only the route the dogs followed, and leaving via the carpark on more than one occasion.




stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #271 on: June 26, 2014, 08:53:53 PM »
Pages 825=828 statement of CI Vitor Matos

- As you know, yesterday, 8 May 2007 at 23h45, the undersigned joined a search effected by the GNR dog team which targeted Blocks 5 and 4 of the Ocean Club resort and adjacent areas, with the objective of trying to reconstruct the possible route taken by the missing child on 3 May 2007.
- The search was led by GNR 1st Sergeant A.F.Silva, head of the search and rescue team who coordinated all the work done by the "dual track" [method] which was performed by two tracker dogs with their handler, GNR officer P.Fernandes.
- The members of the GNR advised that the tracker dogs are trained to search mainly in rural areas, given the fact that the best capability of the animal is to identify a different and strong smell in a wide, open area, it being sure that in terms of timing they said that after 48 hours from the event it is difficult to obtain positive results. Concerning urban areas, or areas with identical characteristics, they advised that due to the fact of there being a large number of odours in the air, it becomes impossible for the tracker dog to manage to identify/locate the "target smell", because it is diffuse [dispersed; broken up], [the dog] ending up becoming confused and indicating its disinterest in continuing the search.


- Further, in an informal conversation with the GNR team, they advised that on the 4 May they had done the same work, with no control over the direction taken by the dogs, i.e. they were not directed into the buildings, it being certain that they took the same route described above, with the same attitude, losing the trail next to the car park of Block 6.

*Snip*
- The GNR team performing the search had in its possession, packed in a plastic bag, a towel supposedly used to clean the missing youngster - Madeleine McCann - furnished by her parents.

*Snip* (final paragraph)
- According to the GNR team and after the work was finished, they gave their opinion about what had happened, saying it is difficult the be precise about the dogs' achievement given the conditioning factors involved - smells, time of day, area concerned - adding still more the degree of uncertainty, because the clues revealed by the dogs can only be significant by confirming if in an area of intense odour, the intended [hunted; sought after] smell is found.
- Laid bare, in their understanding, the interest demonstrated by the dog at the doors of some apartments can not signify that the scent of the missing child was detected, but solely a mere confirmation and going off track [straying], because it never showed the handler that it had found the intended scent.



Whilst much of the information in the above statement was the Chief Inspector's interpretation of the information relayed by the dog handler's he accompanied on the second s&r dogs' operation, I feel that the "48 hour" point for living scent is as significant as the 28day time limit for cadaver odour.
I question why the dogs could follow the same ground route on 2 occasions 4 days apart (aside from signalling at the upper apartments). It sugests to me that the scent came from an individual who was using only the route the dogs followed, and leaving via the carpark on more than one occasion.

28 day limit ?

 8-)(--)

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #272 on: June 26, 2014, 09:08:19 PM »
28 day limit ?

 8-)(--)

John Barrett, former SY dog handler, in Sept 2007.
Remember, it was cadaver contact scent, not cadaver remains.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #273 on: June 26, 2014, 09:10:40 PM »
John Barrett, former SY dog handler, in Sept 2007.
Remember, it was cadaver contact scent, not cadaver remains.

Is that an absolute limit and have you checked from other reference sources ?

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #274 on: June 26, 2014, 10:15:52 PM »
Is that an absolute limit and have you checked from other reference sources ?


No, that is IMO not an absolute limit because it must surely be dependent on the quantity & duration of cadaver contact. The dogs are a tool, not a measuring device.
I am merely highlighting the opinion apparently expressed by the s&r dog handlers regarding the dispersion of living scent in open areas - 5 days after the event in an open area frequented by many would indicate to me that the scent was pretty fresh.


Offline Eleanor

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #275 on: June 27, 2014, 08:06:24 AM »

No, that is IMO not an absolute limit because it must surely be dependent on the quantity & duration of cadaver contact. The dogs are a tool, not a measuring device.
I am merely highlighting the opinion apparently expressed by the s&r dog handlers regarding the dispersion of living scent in open areas - 5 days after the event in an open area frequented by many would indicate to me that the scent was pretty fresh.

And so would the cadaver scent be when Eddie indicated.  Or so it would seem.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #276 on: June 27, 2014, 08:40:28 AM »

No, that is IMO not an absolute limit because it must surely be dependent on the quantity & duration of cadaver contact. The dogs are a tool, not a measuring device.
I am merely highlighting the opinion apparently expressed by the s&r dog handlers regarding the dispersion of living scent in open areas - 5 days after the event in an open area frequented by many would indicate to me that the scent was pretty fresh.

So the 28 day marker was irrelevant then ?

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #277 on: June 27, 2014, 03:28:39 PM »
So the 28 day marker was irrelevant then ?

No, not irrelevant at all. But a 90 day time lapse is stretching it a bit far, don't you think, given the absence of cellular remains pertaining uniquely to Madeleine?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #278 on: June 27, 2014, 04:28:45 PM »
Just for you ferryman.

'The searches of the villa and the examination of clothing, for which they borrowed a sports hall were not searches for Madeleine - they were searches associated with the suspects, her parents. '

Please remember that.

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #279 on: June 27, 2014, 07:03:55 PM »
Just for you ferryman.

'The searches of the villa and the examination of clothing, for which they borrowed a sports hall were not searches for Madeleine - they were searches associated with the suspects, her parents. '

Please remember that.

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but I'm not Ferryman!
Did the PJ really have to remove the McCanns' clothes from the rental villa to test them, or was that done to increase the number of separate places the cadaver odour was indicated?
 I got the impression from the video that Eddie "missed" some of the evidence in one of the wardrobes in the rented villa.

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #280 on: June 27, 2014, 10:26:40 PM »
This from Kate's book page 93...

According to the files, the tracker dogs did not go out until 11pm on 4 May. At some point in the first twenty-four hours (I could not say when exactly, but probably that morning) I recall one of the GNR patrol officers asking us for some of Madeleine’s clothing or belongings to enable these dogs to identify her scent. I fetched the pink princess blanket she took to bed with her every night, which they took, and some of her clothes, which they didn’t.
I think this was in the early hours of the 4th at about 2:30AM because it fits with handler Lacão's statement
"They arrived at about 02.30. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed"
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:39:48 PM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #281 on: June 27, 2014, 10:38:13 PM »
Discussion on this thread has been very useful, thankyou all.
I now think it is likely that the blanket is the scent source used for all three dog trails
(early 4th Numi + Kit, late 4th Rex + Zarus, and late 8th Rex + Zarus).

Martina

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #282 on: June 27, 2014, 10:40:27 PM »
Discussion on this thread has been very useful, thankyou all.
I now think it is likely that the blanket is likely to be the scent source used for all three dog trails
(early 4th Numi + Kit, late 4th Rex + Zarus, and late 8th Rex + Zarus).

Sure. And the GNR dog handlers are the morons that cannot tell the difference between the towel and the blanket. Let's screw the logic all together now.

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #283 on: June 27, 2014, 10:49:25 PM »
Also I think dogs can tell the direction of a trail.
If they couldn't it would be big fail of evolution - wild dogs thousands of years ago using their sense of smell to trail prey would have 50% of the time gone exactly the wrong way!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:51:30 PM by pegasus »

Offline Brietta

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #284 on: June 28, 2014, 12:45:43 AM »
Discussion on this thread has been very useful, thankyou all.
I now think it is likely that the blanket is the scent source used for all three dog trails
(early 4th Numi + Kit, late 4th Rex + Zarus, and late 8th Rex + Zarus).

I have lost my source, but I read that during evaluation sniffer dogs were capable of following a scent from a piece of material which had been sealed in a jar, on many different occasions and over an extended period of time.
Sealing in an evidence pouch would be just as effective imo if resealed after each exposure to the dogs.
I am sure the GNR teams would be on the ball about that as part of their training.

I would agree that the blanket is the most likely object to have been used for the dogs.

I doubt Dr McCann would have been able to give the GNR handlers on the 8th a 'towel which had been used to dry Madeleine' for the following reasons:-
They had moved out of the apartment; Madeleine's bedding had been washed by housekeeping so it is highly likely towels had been too.
It is unlikely they would have taken soiled towels with them, it would be highly unlikely they were using the same towels four days later.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....