Author Topic: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.  (Read 65610 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #300 on: June 30, 2014, 12:17:43 AM »
I think the trails the dogs follow are all pre 6pm and the dogs can detect direction.
So the freshest trail would be the first very short trail mentioned by Fernandes, heading towards the front door (this may be the trail home from kidsclub tea on 3rd).
The second freshest is the trail away from the front door (this may be the trail on 3rd from lunch in apartment going first via the tapas area to drop off siblings and then out to older kidsclub) and it loses its followability in the area outside/opposite tapas reception due to environmental factors.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 12:23:01 AM by pegasus »

Offline Brietta

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #301 on: June 30, 2014, 10:26:16 AM »
I think the trails the dogs follow are all pre 6pm and the dogs can detect direction.
So the freshest trail would be the first very short trail mentioned by Fernandes, heading towards the front door (this may be the trail home from kidsclub tea on 3rd).
The second freshest is the trail away from the front door (this may be the trail on 3rd from lunch in apartment going first via the tapas area to drop off siblings and then out to older kidsclub) and it loses its followability in the area outside/opposite tapas reception due to environmental factors.

Maybe we are being too hopeful that the work carried out by the GNR dog teams shows anything of significance or that they were following Madeleine’s scent at all. 
I’ve had another look at Sgt Silva’s statement which is the one identifying the towel as a source. 
What does he mean in his concluding sentence?  I am confused. What scent were the dogs following if not Madeleine’s whether before or after her abduction? 
I have also recapped on Levy’s involvement in the release of these files and wonder if some of the information might not be showing signs of interference, for example, (not being argumentative) blanket and towel?
Antonio Freitas Silva Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team, coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas.  I think these teams knew what they were about so any conclusion reached by them has to carry weight.

SNIP
- Because he is asked, he states that in relation to this, it is difficult to evaluate precisely the work of the sniffer dog. It is clear that some conditions involved in this action augment the degree of uncertainty. The signalling of the dog may only signify that they are confirming an intense odour in a zone. On the other hand, given the interest of the dog(s) in some of the apartment doorways, this could signify nothing, but could also very well mean that the dog has caught the odour. The dog did not demonstrate to its owner that it had found the scent it was searching for.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #302 on: June 30, 2014, 02:00:30 PM »
... Sgt Silva’s statement ...What does he mean in his concluding sentence? ...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
Silva was supervising handler Fernandes and his two dogs Rex and Zarus
Their work here can be split into two types:
1. Scent item shown to dog, then dog instructed to trail that scent (leading to near a lamppost).
2. Scent item shown to dog, the dog is not instructed to trail that scent, but instead the dog is deliberately

I think what Silva is saying is: in item 2 above, at a few apartment doors the dog shows increased sniffing activity and the reason may be that the dog has encountered strong smells at that door, which the dog needs to do alot of sniffing of, in order to decipher the odour mixture, even if the target scent is not present?

Offline Brietta

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #303 on: June 30, 2014, 02:43:37 PM »
Silva was supervising handler Fernandes and his two dogs Rex and Zarus
Their work here can be split into two types:
1. Scent item shown to dog, then dog instructed to trail that scent (leading to near a lamppost).
2. Scent item shown to dog, the dog is not instructed to trail that scent, but instead the dog is deliberately

I think what Silva is saying is: in item 2 above, at a few apartment doors the dog shows increased sniffing activity and the reason may be that the dog has encountered strong smells at that door, which the dog needs to do alot of sniffing of, in order to decipher the odour mixture, even if the target scent is not present?

Clear explanation but some doors and not others?  I will need to give it a lot more thought and look at all the GNR statements again. 

The McCann apartment and the Payne apartment are obvious connections since Madeleine is known to have been in both. 
5J which was unoccupied has always been a puzzlement. Even more so now, as following some of the cites provided by you and some I have found have given a clearer understanding of these sniffer dog abilities. 
They may have been confused, but their training taught them concentration on the main source of scent and apparently they do not deviate from that.  So although sniffing to differentiate ... one dog even raising itself up at a balcony to sniff the air ... I think they were scenting and following the initial source of the scent.  I think they may well have been trailing Madeleine, whether that was prior to the 3rd or not I have no idea.
Silva's statement has thrown me.   
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #304 on: June 30, 2014, 03:15:05 PM »
Clear explanation but some doors and not others?  I will need to give it a lot more thought and look at all the GNR statements again. 

The McCann apartment and the Payne apartment are obvious connections since Madeleine is known to have been in both. 
5J which was unoccupied has always been a puzzlement. Even more so now, as following some of the cites provided by you and some I have found have given a clearer understanding of these sniffer dog abilities. 
They may have been confused, but their training taught them concentration on the main source of scent and apparently they do not deviate from that.  So although sniffing to differentiate ... one dog even raising itself up at a balcony to sniff the air ... I think they were scenting and following the initial source of the scent.  I think they may well have been trailing Madeleine, whether that was prior to the 3rd or not I have no idea.
Silva's statement has thrown me.

The Silva/Fernandes/Rex/Zarus team at about 23:00 on May 8th noted interest at 5J door but did not enter.

5J was entered on the 10th:

"On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used 
... at apartment 5J ... it was observed that the odour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables".
(Source: Vol 13 Page 3523)

Were the 4 dogs used on 10th May Rex Zarus Numi and Kit ?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 03:21:21 PM by pegasus »

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #305 on: July 01, 2014, 01:50:11 AM »
I think the trails the dogs follow are all pre 6pm and the dogs can detect direction.
So the freshest trail would be the first very short trail mentioned by Fernandes, heading towards the front door (this may be the trail home from kidsclub tea on 3rd).
The second freshest is the trail away from the front door (this may be the trail on 3rd from lunch in apartment going first via the tapas area to drop off siblings and then out to older kidsclub) and it loses its followability in the area outside/opposite tapas reception due to environmental factors.


How do you explain the dogs' interest in 4G?

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #306 on: July 02, 2014, 12:20:22 AM »

How do you explain the dogs' interest in 4G?
In the files it suggests the interest may have been due to a tray of dirty plates/cutlery on the floor of the 1st floor walkway outside 4G door (the holiday company were delivering meals to them at this stage).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:23:39 AM by pegasus »

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #307 on: July 02, 2014, 01:18:20 AM »
In the files it suggests the interest may have been due to a tray of dirty plates/cutlery on the floor of the 1st floor walkway outside 4G door (the holiday company were delivering meals to them at this stage).

You don't seriously believe that, do you? They were trained search & rescue dogs. That's almost tantamount to saying they followed the trail of room service around blocks 4 & 5.

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #308 on: July 03, 2014, 06:00:35 PM »
I found a very very short video clip  of a GNR dog being shown a scent item to sniff.
The scent item itself cannot be seen.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AzxCjphv40#t=69
You need to pause the video at about 1:07 to see it. What date,was this? And which dog?

Offline sadie

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #309 on: July 03, 2014, 06:25:39 PM »

Well it looks like Andy Redwoods back to us, but I can't be sure.  If it is , then it was in fairly recent days, and outside the front door to 5A it seems.   But once again, there is too little showing to be sure, but outside 5A front door at a glance anyhow.

Now the dog?  Come on ... enlighten us please.

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #310 on: July 03, 2014, 06:50:42 PM »
The short video snippet of GNR dog being shown scent item, is from early May  2007
Any ideas what day? Could it be May 11th? Just guessing.

Offline sadie

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #311 on: July 03, 2014, 09:36:30 PM »
The short video snippet of GNR dog being shown scent item, is from early May  2007
Any ideas what day? Could it be May 11th? Just guessing.

Sorry, cant help.  No longer read long reports.

Offline pegasus

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #312 on: July 04, 2014, 12:37:17 AM »
You don't seriously believe that, do you? They were trained search & rescue dogs. That's almost tantamount to saying they followed the trail of room service around blocks 4 & 5.
IIRC the GNR dog diligence statement says the K9 interest ceased when the tray of dirty plates etc was removed.
At that date there was Tapas room service IIRC exclusively for apartments 4g and 4i, not any other apartment.
There is a Tapas staff statement about this.

Offline misty

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #313 on: July 04, 2014, 01:14:44 AM »
IIRC the GNR dog diligence statement says the K9 interest ceased when the tray of dirty plates etc was removed.
At that date there was Tapas room service IIRC exclusively for apartments 4g and 4i, not any other apartment.
There is a Tapas staff statement about this.

But the burning question is:-
Did the dogs lose interest because the scent detected was removed or because the food was removed? Oh, if only they could speak our language......
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:37:22 PM by Mr Moderator »

Offline John

Re: Madeleine's last movements tracked by the GNR sniffer dogs.
« Reply #314 on: August 29, 2014, 01:40:59 PM »
According to much of what we know, Madeleine was carried out of the apartment in windy conditions.  In those circumstances it is almost impossible for tracker dogs to follow a trail since the scent will have dispersed. 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 02:19:35 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.