Effect of June's Mental Illness on Sheila circa 1959

[Holly Goodhead]

Dr Ferguson's witnesss statement states the following:

"I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required e.c.t as an in patient and made a full recovery."

Sheila (born Phyllis Webb) was born on 18th July 1957 and spent the first two weeks of her life with her birth mother Christine Jay.  She then spent the next few weeks of her life in a nursery situated in Box, Wiltshire.  This was followed by her placement with Nevil and June Bamber, during October 1957, who legally adopted SC shortly afterwards.

During SC's first 2/3 years of life she experienced a number of different 'primary caregivers':

Birth mother - Christine Jay
to
Various caregivers at nursery in Box, Wiltshire
to
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
to
Unknown person whilst June was receiving in-patient psychiatric treatment for severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC
to
Adoptive mother - June Bamber

If a baby fails to form a secure attachment with a primary caregiver it has the potential to give rise to an 'attachment disorder'.  There is much evidence by way of SC's lifelong history across all areas of her life to suggest she did not form a secure attachment and suffered an attachment disorder:

http://www.attachmentexperts.com/whatisattachment.html

In addition to the potential for an attachment disorder due to failure to bond with a primary caregiver it is likely that SC suffered neglect as a result of June's depression:

Maternal Depression Can Undermine the Development of Young Children

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp8/

The Science of Neglect: The Persistent Absence of Responsive Care Disrupts the Developing Brain

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp12/

Dr Allan Schore : http://www.allanschore.com/

Dr Allan Schore on early attachment and the roots of suicide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ236szRMD4&list=PLjVgchotHSQBJg-p0dq5sUhQXlA[Name removed]M85D&index=1

Dr Allan Schore explains how an infant's cognitive structure is effected by a mother's depression

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTZQhCMy3vU

Dr Allan Schore on attachment trauma and the effects of neglect and abuse on the brain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB51V3fAAvs&list=PLjVgchotHSQBJg-p0dq5sUhQXlA[Name removed]M85D&index=2

The psychological, psychiatric and neuroscientific evidence is overwhelming in suggesting SC was responsible for murdering her adoptive parents and children and taking her own life.  I do not believe there is a psychologist, psychiatrist, neuroscientist anywhere in the world that will see it differently.  Especially when compared with JB's psychological profile as stated by Professor Vincent Egan and the many other psychologists/psychiatrists who have evaluated JB many times, using different methods, over different time periods:

http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/


34

[Holly Goodhead]

Shortly after I joined The Jeremy Bamber forum I posted the following:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2310.msg69862.html?PHPSESSID=b928037beb9d01fdcb69eb8b9e2ce76d#msg69862

At 4. above I ask if SC was a schizophrenic.  I am now of the opinion she wasn't and that Dr Ferguson's diagnosis of SC was wrong.  I believe the correct diagnosis was 'Borderline Personality Disorder'. If I am correct this has a number of implications:

1.  Currently, no medication is licensed to treat borderline personality disorder in the UK.  Therefore SC's prescribed medication of Haliperidol to treat schizophrenia was likely to have been ineffective.

2. SC's potential for aggression and violence was misunderstood by all concerned including the jury.

3. SC's potential to carry through on suicide was misunderstood by all concerned including the jury.

[Andrea]

Hi Holls :)
 How can you state that a Psychiatrist got the diagnosis wrong? Have you ever met Sheila; interviewed her? Are you a qualified shrink yourself?

[Tim Invictus]

Hi Holls :)
 How can you state that a Psychiatrist got the diagnosis wrong? Have you ever met Sheila; interviewed her? Are you a qualified shrink yourself?

That's what Bamberettes do Andi .... to make their 'poor Jeremy' innocent they all know better than everyone involved in the case including the twins father, Bamber's surviving relatives, the police, jury, etc.etc.etc.

Nobody who knew Bamber outside prison doubts for one second he is a murdering b......... How arrogant it is to state you know better!

At least our Hols shows due respect though; I appreciate her for that! 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Hi Holls :)
 How can you state that a Psychiatrist got the diagnosis wrong? Have you ever met Sheila; interviewed her? Are you a qualified shrink yourself?

Yes I guess I was being a bit bold there Andrea; some might say presumptuous but I think I might be right!  Is it any different from those who believe JB guilty continuing to label him a psychopath, sociopath etc when they know full well he has been evaluated numerous times by qualified personnel, using different methods, over different time periods, and no hint of any mental illness or personality disorder has ever been identified. And yet they refuse to accept any of this preferring instead to believe that JB is so skilled in manipulation that he could deceive the likes of Prof Egan:

http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/

As I think you know I studied psychology at degree level in the 80's (unrelated career) and when I first read Dr F's WS and his reference to June suffering from depression (potential for neglect due to unresponsiveness) as a result of adopting SC I recalled 'attachment' from my course and thought it was highly relevant.  More so with SC being adopted ie the more separations from 'primary caregivers' the more chance of an attachment disorder occurring. It is certainly something Dr F would have been completely familiar with as its a cornerstone of psychology/psychiatry and yet he makes no reference to it.  Although he does tell us about June's depression circa 1959 and the cause of it.  Imo this would be like a heart surgeon saying a heart attack patient was clinically obese, never took any exercise and on a daily basis consumed 3 fry-ups, 40 cigs, and 20 pints and yet not connecting the lifestyle to the heart attack!  Cause and effect!

As far as I can see the purpose of Dr F's was to advise interested parties on SC's mental state past and present.  Why bring up June's depression from 1959 if it had no relevance to SC?  He makes reference to it and yet fails to explain the relevance. Why?

Anyway since the 80's 'attachment' has moved on leaps and bounds.  All the research shows that a poor attachment can result in a lack of empathy which is a feature of psychopathy.  If  you're interested you may care to check out the following at 9.40 min in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE

It features Prof Simon Baron-Cohen talking about zero degrees of empathy in connection with psychopathy and 'attachment'.  As much as those who believe JB guilty might not want to hear this, there really is overwhelming evidence to suggest that SC suffered from an attachment disorder leading to a lack of empathy and the potential for psychopathy.  Please don't shoot the messenger!

As June suffered from severe depression it is highly likely that at some point in the lead up to her hospitalisation that SC suffered from neglect by way of June being unresponsive and SC not getting her needs met.  Again the evidence from neuroscientists is overwhelming in showing how infant neglect literally shapes brain architecture, feeds into implicit memory, wreaks havoc on the limbic system and impairs executive functions over the entire lifespan of  the individual if left untreated.  I think in SC's case the underlying problems went untreated.  Certainly Haliperidol was not the way.  You will recall I am sure from CC's book Andrea that SC pleaded with CC to  discuss her treatment with NB and June as she herself felt it was all wrong.  CC promised to  do this on Sunday 4th August but did not follow through.

To say its an understudied aspect of the WHF case is somewhat on an understatement. I am surprised I am the only person that appears to have touched on it.  When I say person I mean not just poster but professionals too.  I think with a multi-disciplinary approach ie psychologists, psychiatrists and neuroscientists evaluating SC's case history they would overwhelmingly support SC as being responsible.

It is believed JB's motivation was greed and hatred of his family.  Based on the  above I have to go with the motivation being based on attachment and loss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8

By all accounts SC's reunion with her birth mother, which took place just weeks before the murders, was a positive experience. However after the initial euphoria of the first meeting wore off, and her birth mother was back in Canada, and SC made her first post reunion visit to WHF and was in June's company for an extended period of time I think something sparked off in her mind.

 

[scipio_usmc]

Yes I guess I was being a bit bold there Andrea; some might say presumptuous but I think I might be right!  Is it any different from those who believe JB guilty continuing to label him a psychopath, sociopath etc when they know full well he has been evaluated numerous times by qualified personnel, using different methods, over different time periods, and no hint of any mental illness or personality disorder has ever been identified. And yet they refuse to accept any of this preferring instead to believe that JB is so skilled in manipulation that he could deceive the likes of Prof Egan:

http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/

As I think you know I studied psychology at degree level in the 80's (unrelated career) and when I first read Dr F's WS and his reference to June suffering from depression (potential for neglect due to unresponsiveness) as a result of adopting SC I recalled 'attachment' from my course and thought it was highly relevant.  More so with SC being adopted ie the more separations from 'primary caregivers' the more chance of an attachment disorder occurring. It is certainly something Dr F would have been completely familiar with as its a cornerstone of psychology/psychiatry and yet he makes no reference to it.  Although he does tell us about June's depression circa 1959 and the cause of it.  Imo this would be like a heart surgeon saying a heart attack patient was clinically obese, never took any exercise and on a daily basis consumed 3 fry-ups, 40 cigs, and 20 pints and yet not connecting the lifestyle to the heart attack!  Cause and effect!

As far as I can see the purpose of Dr F's was to advise interested parties on SC's mental state past and present.  Why bring up June's depression from 1959 if it had no relevance to SC?  He makes reference to it and yet fails to explain the relevance. Why?

Anyway since the 80's 'attachment' has moved on leaps and bounds.  All the research shows that a poor attachment can result in a lack of empathy which is a feature of psychopathy.  If  you're interested you may care to check out the following at 9.40 min in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE

It features Prof Simon Baron-Cohen talking about zero degrees of empathy in connection with psychopathy and 'attachment'.  As much as those who believe JB guilty might not want to hear this, there really is overwhelming evidence to suggest that SC suffered from an attachment disorder leading to a lack of empathy and the potential for psychopathy.  Please don't shoot the messenger!

As June suffered from severe depression it is highly likely that at some point in the lead up to her hospitalisation that SC suffered from neglect by way of June being unresponsive and SC not getting her needs met.  Again the evidence from neuroscientists is overwhelming in showing how infant neglect literally shapes brain architecture, feeds into implicit memory, wreaks havoc on the limbic system and impairs executive functions over the entire lifespan of  the individual if left untreated.  I think in SC's case the underlying problems went untreated.  Certainly Haliperidol was not the way.  You will recall I am sure from CC's book Andrea that SC pleaded with CC to  discuss her treatment with NB and June as she herself felt it was all wrong.  CC promised to  do this on Sunday 4th August but did not follow through.

To say its an understudied aspect of the WHF case is somewhat on an understatement. I am surprised I am the only person that appears to have touched on it.  When I say person I mean not just poster but professionals too.  I think with a multi-disciplinary approach ie psychologists, psychiatrists and neuroscientists evaluating SC's case history they would overwhelmingly support SC as being responsible.

It is believed JB's motivation was greed and hatred of his family.  Based on the  above I have to go with the motivation being based on attachment and loss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8

By all accounts SC's reunion with her birth mother, which took place just weeks before the murders, was a positive experience. However after the initial euphoria of the first meeting wore off, and her birth mother was back in Canada, and SC made her first post reunion visit to WHF and was in June's company for an extended period of time I think something sparked off in her mind.

Aside from having zero qualification to make any mental assessment at all you are ignoring the evidence related to the murders.

It would be like me trying to assess who had a better motive for murdering April you or Mat. And only looking at motive but completely ignoring all the evidence that actually answers the question of who did it.

The evidence proves Sheila can't have killed herself and ther eis no evidence she killed anyone else either.

You choose to ignore reality going so far as to ignore that there was a struggle in the kitchen all so you cna present bogus psychology claims that hold no water either and completely ignore Sheila's situation on the day of the murders.

[Tim Invictus]

That sounds about right, but I guess all concerned will be keen to establish how an individual could carry out the crimes he was convicted of in the absence of showing any mental illness/personality disorder?  The judge delivered the sentence immediately after the verdicts were reached so it doesn't appear sentencing was adjourned pending psychiatric reports etc.  JB must surely have been formally assessed at some stage eg upon starting his time on remand or soon after sentencing?

Holly have you ever watched the Ted Bundy interviews or especially when he represented himself at court? The judge called Bundy a very bright young man who he would have loved to have practise before him in his court ..... then he sentenced him to death for dozens of terrible murders of young women including 3 in one night. Bundy also returned to dead bodies to sexually molest them long after he killed them!

You would properly find Bundy charming as most people did. A very self confident man who also passed all examinations foe mental disorders!

Bamber is very similar to Bundy in many ways (imo) although his murders were for practical gain rather than sexual deviancy!

There's lots of you tube clips!

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly have you ever watched the Ted Bundy interviews or especially when he represented himself at court? The judge called Bundy a very bright young man who he would have loved to have practise before him in his court ..... then he sentenced him to death for dozens of terrible murders of young women including 3 in one night. Bundy also returned to dead bodies to sexually molest them long after he killed them!

You would properly find Bundy charming as most people did. A very self confident man who also passed all examinations foe mental disorders!

Bamber is very similar to Bundy in many ways (imo) although his murders were for practical gain rather than sexual deviancy!

There's lots of you tube clips!

From my albeit very limited knowledge on TB I don't really see any similarities with JB.  Other than both were born illegitimate. To avoid the stigma TB's maternal grandparents brought him up as their son and his mother was known as his sister!  Like June TB's maternal grandmother suffered from depression and periodically underwent electro-convulsive treatment but this potentially affected SC not JB.  As far as I can see that's where the similarities end.  TB exhibited 'odd' behaviour at an early age.  His maternal grandfather appears to have been an explosive, unsavoury and unstable character.  TB eventually found out about his * true paternity and lived with his mother and step-father.  The family were low-socio economic.  TB was diagnosed with various personality disorders notably psychopathy.  None of this applies to JB. 

I struggle to comprehend anyone shooting dead two 6 year old boys in bed while asleep without suffering from some sort of personality disorder and/or mental illness. 

*It seems uncertain who fathered TB.  Some say his maternal grandfather?!

[scipio_usmc]

From my albeit very limited knowledge on TB I don't really see any similarities with JB.  Other than both were born illegitimate. To avoid the stigma TB's maternal grandparents brought him up as their son and his mother was known as his sister!  Like June TB's maternal grandmother suffered from depression and periodically underwent electro-convulsive treatment but this potentially affected SC not JB.  As far as I can see that's where the similarities end.  TB exhibited 'odd' behaviour at an early age.  His maternal grandfather appears to have been an explosive, unsavoury and unstable character.  TB eventually found out about his * true paternity and lived with his mother and step-father.  The family were low-socio economic.  TB was diagnosed with various personality disorders notably psychopathy.  None of this applies to JB. 

I struggle to comprehend anyone shooting dead two 6 year old boys in bed while asleep without suffering from some sort of personality disorder and/or mental illness. 

*It seems uncertain who fathered TB.  Some say his maternal grandfather?!

Prisons across the globe are loaded with murderers who were not diagnosed as having any mental disrders and indeed in most areas the insane are not tried but instead institutionalized.

Just because you want to believe that only people with mental problems can kill that doesn't make it so. Moreover, some suggest JB did have a personality disorder that failed to be diagnosed.  Most of the time such diagnonses come about only when someone tries to escape libaility by claiming they are insane and after being examined it is determined they simply have a personality disorder not insanity.

   

[Tim Invictus]

Holly you cannot judge people solely by their family background or their psychological diagnosis!

Bamber and Bundy have a lot of similarities. Both are/were considered very attractive to women and exuded a breezy self confidence. Both treated being questioned and accused and finally charged with quite horrendous crimes in their stride and loved the limelight! Both treated the police and courts with amusement and never believed their 'inferiors' could possibly outsmart them and get a guilty verdict.

Both exhibited a total lack of empathy for their victims nor showed a flicker of remorse. Demonstrated by Bundy grilling his own surviving victims on the stand when he defended himself and Bamber trying to sell private porn photos of his sister and murder victim to the police).

Finally, in the face of mountains of evidence to prove their guilt, both men continued to deny any involvement whatsoever! (Hardly surprising I guess considering the appalling nature of their crimes!) Bundy only finally admitting what he did to try and delay his execution!

Very similar narcissistic psychopaths in my opinion!

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly you cannot judge people solely by their family background or their psychological diagnosis!

Bamber and Bundy have a lot of similarities. Both are/were considered very attractive to women and exuded a breezy self confidence. Both treated being questioned and accused and finally charged with quite horrendous crimes in their stride and loved the limelight! Both treated the police and courts with amusement and never believed their 'inferiors' could possibly outsmart them and get a guilty verdict.

Both exhibited a total lack of empathy for their victims nor showed a flicker of remorse. Demonstrated by Bundy grilling his own surviving victims on the stand when he defended himself and Bamber trying to sell private porn photos of his sister and murder victim to the police).

Finally, in the face of mountains of evidence to prove their guilt, both men continued to deny any involvement whatsoever! (Hardly surprising I guess considering the appalling nature of their crimes!) Bundy only finally admitting what he did to try and delay his execution!

Very similar narcissistic psychopaths in my opinion!

I L-O-V-E it when you get all dominant with me.  You roaring like a tiger and me purring like a pussy...

[Holly Goodhead]

Prisons across the globe are loaded with murderers who were not diagnosed as having any mental disrders and indeed in most areas the insane are not tried but instead institutionalized.

Just because you want to believe that only people with mental problems can kill that doesn't make it so. Moreover, some suggest JB did have a personality disorder that failed to be diagnosed.  Most of the time such diagnonses come about only when someone tries to escape libaility by claiming they are insane and after being examined it is determined they simply have a personality disorder not insanity.

   

Can you name me one case IN ENGLAND OR WALES where a man has murdered two sleeping small children and not been diagnosed with some mental illness or personality disorder?

[Holly Goodhead]

Extracts from CoA 2002:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

5. The killings occurred in the early hours of 7 August 1985. All five of those who died met their deaths from gunshot wounds. They were the appellant's parents, Ralph Nevill Bamber and June Bamber, his sister, Sheila Caffell, and his sister's 6 year old twin sons, Nicholas and Daniel Caffell. There was no dispute at trial that four of the five had been murdered. In respect of the fifth, Sheila Caffell, there was an issue, which lay at the very heart of the case, as to whether she had been murdered as the prosecution alleged or whether she had taken her own life as the defence contended.

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

84. The defence at trial called Dr Ferguson, a Consultant Psychiatrist at St Andrew's Hospital in Northampton, who had the care of Sheila Caffell between August 1983 and her death. Mrs Caffell had been referred for treatment by her general practitioner and seen by Dr Ferguson for the first time on 2 August 1983. Then she was in a very agitated and psychotic state and he admitted her for in-patient treatment on 4 August. Dr Ferguson came initially to the diagnosis of a schizo-affective disorder characterised by disturbance of thinking and perception. She was depressed in a paranoid way, struggling with the concept of good and evil and caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to project the Devil's evil to others including her twin sons. In particular she spoke of a fear she could create in her children an ability to have sex and do violence with her. In the discharge letter Dr Ferguson made reference to her morbid thoughts, which included the idea she was capable of murdering her children or communicating an ability to them to kill. He said she had spoken of suicidal thoughts although he did not regard her as a suicide risk. Miss Caffell responded to the treatment at hospital and was discharged on 10 September 1983

Post #1 of this thread, plus above, plus the following from Dr Allan Schore:

Dr Allan Schore explains that effective suicide prevention is contingent upon addressing the mother - infant dyad in the first year of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzytfh2wan8

[Tim Invictus]

Extracts from CoA 2002:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

5. The killings occurred in the early hours of 7 August 1985. All five of those who died met their deaths from gunshot wounds. They were the appellant's parents, Ralph Nevill Bamber and June Bamber, his sister, Sheila Caffell, and his sister's 6 year old twin sons, Nicholas and Daniel Caffell. There was no dispute at trial that four of the five had been murdered. In respect of the fifth, Sheila Caffell, there was an issue, which lay at the very heart of the case, as to whether she had been murdered as the prosecution alleged or whether she had taken her own life as the defence contended.

46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.

84. The defence at trial called Dr Ferguson, a Consultant Psychiatrist at St Andrew's Hospital in Northampton, who had the care of Sheila Caffell between August 1983 and her death. Mrs Caffell had been referred for treatment by her general practitioner and seen by Dr Ferguson for the first time on 2 August 1983. Then she was in a very agitated and psychotic state and he admitted her for in-patient treatment on 4 August. Dr Ferguson came initially to the diagnosis of a schizo-affective disorder characterised by disturbance of thinking and perception. She was depressed in a paranoid way, struggling with the concept of good and evil and caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to project the Devil's evil to others including her twin sons. In particular she spoke of a fear she could create in her children an ability to have sex and do violence with her. In the discharge letter Dr Ferguson made reference to her morbid thoughts, which included the idea she was capable of murdering her children or communicating an ability to them to kill. He said she had spoken of suicidal thoughts although he did not regard her as a suicide risk. Miss Caffell responded to the treatment at hospital and was discharged on 10 September 1983

Post #1 of this thread, plus above, plus the following from Dr Allan Schore:

Dr Allan Schore explains that effective suicide prevention is contingent upon addressing the mother - infant dyad in the first year of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzytfh2wan8

So why didn't Moses turn into a psychotic serial killer?  >@@(*&)

Or perhaps he did but never got caught!

[scipio_usmc]

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-mass-murderers-arent-mentally-ill-2012-12