Can mobile phone pings help investigators in the Madeleine McCann case?

[sadie]

Speaking as a mathematician, and a retired sysprog, unless the data is there in the first place, you can't do much. GIGO.

Consider that coverage from phone masts are not nice round circles but follow land contours and building shadows. Trying to locate a phone with any degree of accuracy is virtually impossible.

They now what numbers were in the area and talking to each other, that's it.

My bet is that with modern 3D technology they can tell pretty accurately which places pings/ calls came from.  Easy to test anyway.  Just go to the suspected spot and see if it registers ...... and how.

[slartibartfast]

My bet is that with modern 3D technology they can tell pretty accurately which places pings/ calls came from.  Easy to test anyway.  Just go to the suspected spot and see if it registers ...... and how.

It is highly unlikely that the mobile infrastructure in PDL has remained as it was in 2007, this associated with improvements in handsets would make an phone reconstruction virtually impossible.

I thought from your previous posts you were an engineer?

[sadie]

It is highly unlikely that the mobile infrastructure in PDL has remained as it was in 2007, this associated with improvements in handsets would make an phone reconstruction virtually impossible.

I thought from your previous posts you were an engineer?

Mechanical, but have not practiced for 50 years.

Electronically I know little, but I understand basic principles about triangulation etc. and I know 3D technology has progressed in  leaps and bounds.


I would be surprised if the technology isn't around now to take account of hills and the like to identify ping spots.. 
They know where the old technology indicated.  Put the info in a new updated machine and bingo it would tell you immedaitely, I would think.

I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

[slartibartfast]

Mechanical, but have not practiced for 50 years.

Electronically I know little, but I understand basic principles about triangulation etc. and I know 3D technology has progressed in  leaps and bounds.


I would be surprised if the technology isn't around now to take account of hills and the like to identify ping spots.. 
They know where the old technology indicated.  Put the info in a new updated machine and bingo it would tell you immedaitely, I would think.

I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

What do you mean by 3D technology?

[sadie]

What do you mean by 3D technology?

I know little about it, but I do know things have progressed beyong two dimensional stuff to 3D.

Perhaps you could elucidate?

[slartibartfast]

I know little about it, but I do know things have progressed beyong two dimensional stuff to 3D.

Perhaps you could elucidate?

You used the term, I wondered what you meant?

[sadie]

You used the term, I wondered what you meant?

I have just said I know little about it, but do know it is around these days.

I asked YOU to elucidate

[slartibartfast]

I have just said I know little about it, but do know it is around these days.

I asked YOU to elucidate

I have no idea what any 3D technology has to do with analysing phone pings. Either you have some source for your comment or it is just technobabble.

[pegasus]

It will be interesting to see if  the analysis of  the phone traffic proves to be of any use.

Even if it does not point to a perpetrator it is a line of investigation which should have been followed in 2007.
...

But you seem to have missed that this line of investigation (tracing mobile phone traffic) was followed in May/June 2007 by the Met's top phone traffic analysis expert working with Mr Amaral.

"2 June 2007 ... one of the British investigators ... has been identified as the Metropolitan police's top digital analysis expert." (Guardian)

In your keenness to criticise Mr Amaral you are actually criticising the Met !

[Brietta]

Even if it does not point to a perpetrator it is a line of investigation which should have been followed in 2007.
...

But you seem to have missed that this line of investigation (tracing mobile phone traffic) was followed in May/June 2007 by the Met's top phone traffic analysis expert working with Mr Amaral.

"2 June 2007 ... one of the British investigators ... has been identified as the Metropolitan police's top digital analysis expert." (Guardian)

In your keenness to criticise Mr Amaral you are actually criticising the Met !

Never one to miss a chance to give credit where credit is due, I am indeed 'keen' that Dr Amaral is held responsible for failings in procedures over which he had control.

However I am finding it strange that you have picked one element of what was an exchange to quote me out of context.

In response to Slarti's Quote from December 07
"So if the PJ didn't investigate phone records, why did they collect them?"
I said, "I am not certain about this ... so stand to be corrected ... I believe it was British technicians who collected the technical information and passed it to the PJ.  Whether that was at the behest of Leicestershire Police or the PJ I have no idea.

The PJ thoroughly scrutinised the phone records of Mr Murat, the Drs McCann and their friends ... that they went no further is not a question for me ... I am equally in the dark about that as you are."  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5764.msg204551#msg204551

So there you have it ... I didn't have a cite for the British  contribution ... but I did know about it and I think the point I was making is that the data was collected by the Brits and used selectively by the PJ. 

We can see what a huge omission that was to the investigation by the witnesses being interviewed and reinterviewed on the strength of the data collected in 2007.   

[pegasus]

@Brietta the tracing of mobile communications by the Amaral investigation was directed at employees also, for example
"we compared the declarations of the Ocean Club's employees with the phone registries of the 3 operators, to figure out if there is any incongruence between the depositions made and their presence at the place, when they claimed that they were absent from that locality. Following this line of reasoning it was determined that two witnesses Bernardino (p 372) and Ecaterina (p 596) activated one of the antennas, beyond the time that they stated having left that area."

[pathfinder73]

With regard to the number that he dialled on that day at that time, he says it was the number 966****** corresponding to his wife's number, which was confirmed in this file.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BERNARDINO-SILVA.htm

[Brietta]

@Brietta the tracing of mobile communications by the Amaral investigation was directed at employees also, for example
"we compared the declarations of the Ocean Club's employees with the phone registries of the 3 operators, to figure out if there is any incongruence between the depositions made and their presence at the place, when they claimed that they were absent from that locality. Following this line of reasoning it was determined that two witnesses Bernardino (p 372) and Ecaterina (p 596) activated one of the antennas, beyond the time that they stated having left that area."

The files revealed the disproportionate scrutiny given to the Drs McCann and their friends' phone records.

IMO the investigation seemed to ignore that there were more people in Praia Da Luz than them, something which did not escape the officers from Operation Grange who carried out the due diligence previously ignored, action which seems to have paid dividends.  The information they are working now was available in 2007.


*** snip

“The majority will be entirely uninvolved in what happened but some will be witnesses and others may be suspects. This is not just a general trawl. This is a targeted attack on the mobile phone database. It has not happened before.”   [/b]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/434211/Madeleine-McCann-investigation-police-vet-every-phone-call-made-from-resort

[pegasus]

The files revealed the disproportionate scrutiny given to the Drs McCann and their friends' phone records.

IMO the investigation seemed to ignore that there were more people in Praia Da Luz than them, something which did not escape the officers from Operation Grange who carried out the due diligence previously ignored, action which seems to have paid dividends.  The information they are working now was available in 2007.


*** snip

“The majority will be entirely uninvolved in what happened but some will be witnesses and others may be suspects. This is not just a general trawl. This is a targeted attack on the mobile phone database. It has not happened before.”   [/b]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/434211/Madeleine-McCann-investigation-police-vet-every-phone-call-made-from-resort

Back in mid 2007 Amaral and the Met experts concentrated on PDL mobile traffic near time of JT sighting and near time of Smith sighting. The more recent SY investigation expanded that and looked at a larger period of time, using the records obtained from the 3 providers back in 2007.

[Brietta]

Back in mid 2007 Amaral and the Met experts concentrated on PDL mobile traffic near time of JT sighting and near time of Smith sighting. The more recent SY investigation expanded that and looked at a larger period of time, using the records obtained from the 3 providers back in 2007.

That information was available to the original investigation who did not thoroughly exploit it.  Instead of analysing it as a whole to see the bigger picture they concentrated on a few pixels designed to reinforce the theory of parental involvement.
A truly valuable resource was perhaps misunderstood but certainly implemented with one objective in view.