can anyone who believes Jeremy is innocent actaully provide a basis for such

[Holly Goodhead]

The killer and Nevill fought over the rifle. Think about 4 hands on the rifle pulling it in different directions. How would that particular rifle be tall enough to break the lampshade?  Wihtout the moderator attached the barrel will not extend above the heads of those struggling.  A struggle with Sheila would feature the gun lower than Jeremy because she was shorter.  Even with Jeremy and Nevill the barrel would have been below their heads not above.  The only way the gun would have been long enough is with the moderator attached.  The scratches to the aga confirm it was indeed attached as they struggled.

Are you suggesting Sheila or Jeremy had an extra hand?  The pathologist stated "Regarding wound 7 [bedroom], in my view after the infliction of this wound the victim's ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726

If NB's left arm was totally impaired in the bedroom how did he engage in a struggle over the rifle in the kitchen with anyone?

If you wish to assert that the lampshade was smashed during a struggle between NB and the perpetrator are you able to provide the following measurements to enable us to make informed decisions:

Height from floor to lowest and highest point of lampshade
Height and arm length of NB
Height and arm length of JB
Height and arm length of SC
Length of rifle with and without silencer

[Holly Goodhead]

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would put this here as I am sure it is a pretty moot point  8-)(--)

I have often been puzzled why if SC took her own life she chose to do so in her parents' bedroom (main bedroom), and close to June who by all accounts she didn't get on with to put it mildly, ie why not the twins' room or even her own room?  Then I recalled seeing a number of photos of SC fussing over her pets eg rabbit, cat and dog.  As Crispy the dog was found in the main bedroom I wonder if this is what led SC to this room?

[John]

Rather than start a new thread I thought I would put this here as I am sure it is a pretty moot point  8-)(--)

I have often been puzzled why if SC took her own life she chose to do so in her parents' bedroom (main bedroom), and close to June who by all accounts she didn't get on with to put it mildly, ie why not the twins' room or even her own room?  Then I recalled seeing a number of photos of SC fussing over her pets eg rabbit, cat and dog.  As Crispy the dog was found in the main bedroom I wonder if this is what led SC to this room?

No Holly, it was Jerry who led her there before shooting her.

[Holly Goodhead]

No Holly, it was Jerry who led her there before shooting her.

Possibly, but if JB wanted to stage a suicide why there and not in the twins' room?  If he went to the trouble of staging a suicide by introducing the bible it doesn't make sense to me that he didn't think through the location? 

What was SC doing while JB shot NB and June and, if you subscribe to Scipio's theories, fighting with NB in the kitchen?

I am sure Scipio will enlighten me 

[Eleanor]

Possibly, but if JB wanted to stage a suicide why there and not in the twins' room?  If he went to the trouble of staging a suicide by introducing the bible it doesn't make sense to me that he didn't think through the location? 

What was SC doing while JB shot NB and June and, if you subscribe to Scipio's theories, fighting with NB in the kitchen?

I am sure Scipio will enlighten me 

Why didn't Sheila run?  I would have been out of there like the clappers out of hell.  She couldn't actually save anyone.  Could she?  Obviously not.

[Holly Goodhead]

Why didn't Sheila run?  I would have been out of there like the clappers out of hell.  She couldn't actually save anyone.  Could she?  Obviously not.

I think a mothers first instinct would be to protect her children to the point of sacrificing her life.  If JB surely he would attempt to kill NB first as he would be the greatest threat to any plan?  If one subscribes to Scipio's theory about an altercation taking place in the kitchen, along with John's theory regarding the noise levels from gunfire with the silencer attached, surely SC would wake and grab the twins and run?  If NB and JB were engaged in a power struggle over the rifle/moderator with it scratching the Aga, smashing the lampshade, and crockery knocked off the table with chairs and stools overturned surely this presented an opportunity to escape?  None of it makes sense.

[Myster]

Anschutz 525: full length = 1090mm. (almost 43") + Parker-Hale moderator = 176mm. (almost 7")

Total length = 1266mm. (about 50")

Get hold of a Stanley or similar tape measure, lock it at 50" then stand up in your kitchen and wave it about with both hands like a madman (or in your case madwoman) and see if you can reach the lampshade. Careful you don't smash it though... don't want any cuts on those pretty little feet.

JB was taller than Sheila and probably taller than you as well, so it was easier to reach the shade.

Average modern room height is about 2.35m (about 7'9"). WHF being older more likely to be taller, even anything up to 10', but then you need to allow for the drop of ceiling light flex.

Similarly, lock the tape at 36" (the measurement from trigger to rifle end + moderator that Herbert MacDonell noted), hold it at right angles to your body, place one end on your neck as per the first shot, then try to reach the other end with your fingers. My reach attempt was 4" too short. Sheila Caffell was thought to have a short reach, and so it was impossible for her to have pulled the trigger.

But then again you don't believe the moderator was fitted!

[Holly Goodhead]

Anschutz 525: full length = 1090mm. (almost 43") + Parker-Hale moderator = 176mm. (almost 7")

Total length = 1266mm. (about 50")

Get hold of a Stanley or similar tape measure, lock it at 50" then stand up in your kitchen and wave it about with both hands like a madman (or in your case madwoman) and see if you can reach the lampshade. Careful you don't smash it though... don't want any cuts on those pretty little feet.

JB was taller than Sheila and probably taller than you as well, so it was easier to reach the shade.

Average modern room height is about 2.35m (about 7'9"). WHF being older more likely to be taller, even anything up to 10', but then you need to allow for the drop of ceiling light flex.

Similarly, lock the tape at 36" (the measurement from trigger to rifle end + moderator that Herbert MacDonell noted), hold it at right angles to your body, place one end on your neck as per the first shot, then try to reach the other end with your fingers. My reach attempt was 4" too short. Sheila Caffell was thought to have a short reach, and so it was impossible for her to have pulled the trigger.

But then again you don't believe the moderator was fitted!

Thank you Myster.  I am afraid this is where my OCD kicks in ie I need PRECISE measurements to the nearest mm.  "Sheila Caffell was thought to have a short reach" doesn't sound very PRECISE.  Unless we have precise measurements including length of reach it's pretty irrelevant.  I don't think it is necessary for me to retrieve the photo of SC with the rifle which we are all familiar with but the one thing that stands out for me is the length of her fingers.  Although I accept that her long nails may give the appearance of her fingers being longer than they actually were.  Assuming her fingers were longer than average (and certainly her feet were larger than average according to AE's wit stats) she may have been long limbed too.  There are too many unknowns to draw anything meaningful from it.  I think I read somewhere SC was 5' 7" and JB 5' 10"?  (I am teeny only 5' 3.5", 8st 7llbs, size 8.  I can be fierce but overall I think good things come in small packages  which might just be music to your ears 

I think the idea that SC shot herself with the silencer attached and somehow returned it to the gun cupboard is the stuff of fairies.  I am more inclined to think JB guilty than thinking SC used the silencer and returned it to the gun cupboard.

[scipio_usmc]

Are you suggesting Sheila or Jeremy had an extra hand?  The pathologist stated "Regarding wound 7 [bedroom], in my view after the infliction of this wound the victim's ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726

If NB's left arm was totally impaired in the bedroom how did he engage in a struggle over the rifle in the kitchen with anyone?

If you wish to assert that the lampshade was smashed during a struggle between NB and the perpetrator are you able to provide the following measurements to enable us to make informed decisions:

Height from floor to lowest and highest point of lampshade
Height and arm length of NB
Height and arm length of JB
Height and arm length of SC
Length of rifle with and without silencer

Impaired doesn't mean he would not be able to try to use his hand to hold the rifle.  At any rate he had full use of his right arm anyway and thus could indeed have grabbed the  weapon with it.  Since the killer prevailed that means the effort to strip it from the killer was ultimately unsuccessful and all he anaged to do was buy a little more time.

Myster filled in most of the details of import regarding the size of the weapon. 

If you ar holding a broom (obviously lighter than a rifle) and someone tries to take it from you how will the broom what directions will it move and how high will you be holding it?  Are you going to raise it well above your head?  Obviously you want to hold if close to your chest to get the best leverage. The other person would want to twist and yank it to try to pry it away. 

No one is going to be holding it above their head like an axe.

This actually gives a good view of how the killer probably would be holding it as Nevill tried to take it away could can get an idea of height from it rather well.

While you can push the rifle away from the barrel area to try to take it away you would want to grab a more substantial area along the foregrip (the area in from of the magazine) as you can see even though the person in the photo has a hand there someone else can also grab the same area because it is long.   




One of the parties would be likely go for the trigger area as well since that is an ideal place to hold onto. 
 

[scipio_usmc]

Possibly, but if JB wanted to stage a suicide why there and not in the twins' room?  If he went to the trouble of staging a suicide by introducing the bible it doesn't make sense to me that he didn't think through the location? 

What was SC doing while JB shot NB and June and, if you subscribe to Scipio's theories, fighting with NB in the kitchen?

I am sure Scipio will enlighten me 

Why would Sheila kill herself in there?  I have no answer at all why she would.  Logic suggests she would do it in the room where she killed her last victim.  Kill the last victim then turn the gun on herself if she had decided to commit murder suicide.

Why would Jeremy kill her in there?

1) killing her in her own room might be viewed as evidence someone went in there and killed her the same way they did everyone else then left the gun after killing her.

2) killing her near the kids would make it look like she killed them last.  If they were killed last they coudl potentially be considered to inherit property and then their father would get their share.

3) seeing her kids deads could freak her out even more and make her uncoooperative

4) seeing Nevill dead could freak her even out and make her uncooperative

Maybe June was seen as the victim whose body would least freak her out since she liked June the least well out of all the victims

5) Maybe he had not yet killed the twinse at the time he had killed her

6) Maybe he killed the twins already but she didn't know it and he fooled her and told her to cooperate or he would shoot her kids and thus taking her in there would ruin his ruse.

Any of these reaosns could be the answer.  You are asking a state of mind question we have to get into the killer's state of mind to figure out the motivation for why he would choose to stage her there.

For all we know it is something even more simple and less thought out and Sheila had woken up, walked into the room to look at her mother then Jeremy came up and chased her to the other side of the room before grabbing her and forcing her on the floor to shoot her.

Since Jeremy never said is detail what happened we will never know he never even gave Julie the full details and only gavee us a glimpse into his state of mind about certain things like thinking a bike would be safer and less chance of being caught on the roads.   

What was Sheila doing during the murders?

Well her doctor said that the signs described indicated she was over sedated and would have slept very deeply.  So chances are she didn't wake up until Jeremy woke her up to take her into the master bedroom to kill her.

If she did wake up and come out as they were fighting in the kitchen she scould not have missed her mother lying on th efloor so probably would have went and looked, maybe checked on the boys to make sure they were ok.  Then Jeremy comes back up and kills her then the boys.

We know that he had ten shots and used 8 on th eboys and 2 on SHeila we don't know if he killed her and then them or he killed them then went and got her to kill her.  For all we know he shot 5 times, then 3 into the boys then the gun was empty so that is why 1 was shot less as opposed to making sure he saved 2 to kill Sheila with. 

[scipio_usmc]

Why didn't Sheila run?  I would have been out of there like the clappers out of hell.  She couldn't actually save anyone.  Could she?  Obviously not.

Sheila was overmedicated and already in a zombie like state. People said she was vacant and her speech and movements were slow. There is an upper people usually take to counter Haldol's sedative effects but she never refilled that prescription.  So she is woken from a nice sleep and is trying to figure out what is going on and by the time she does it is too late Jeremy is there to kill her.

But maybe she didn't wake up from the sound of the shots they are like caps going off when the sound moderator is used so she could have slept through it.   If she did go downstairs and try to unlock a door Jeremy would have probably caught her before she coudl leave and you would think she would take her kids with her to try to flee.

Ann Eaton was convinced something happned in her bedroom. Maybe he had to drag her out of bed to get her up and she screamed like mad.
 

[Myster]

Scipio, have you noticed the Anschutz in the photo is not the actual murder weapon, in that there is no damage to the wooden stock where a piece was broken off. This photo was featured in the "Murder Casebook" magazine no.7 about the WHF murders, and like others in there is attributed to the Anglia Press Agency. So I presume this other rifle was also found at WHF and could have been the one belonging to Anthony Pargeter?

Although I can't place exactly where in WHF that area/cupboard is from the photo.

[scipio_usmc]

I think a mothers first instinct would be to protect her children to the point of sacrificing her life.  If JB surely he would attempt to kill NB first as he would be the greatest threat to any plan?  If one subscribes to Scipio's theory about an altercation taking place in the kitchen, along with John's theory regarding the noise levels from gunfire with the silencer attached, surely SC would wake and grab the twins and run?  If NB and JB were engaged in a power struggle over the rifle/moderator with it scratching the Aga, smashing the lampshade, and crockery knocked off the table with chairs and stools overturned surely this presented an opportunity to escape?  None of it makes sense.

The gunshots with the moderator attached sound like toy cap gun shots.  There are people who don't wake up from loud gunshotsless alone muffled shots.  So she might not have woken up at all.

The noise in the kitchen was further away than the shots in the bedroom so even less likely to cause her to wake up. But if she did wake up and finally get out of bed to investigate by the time she got out of her room they proably would have been in the kitchen. She wa salreayd considered slow let alone trying to wake up and get her bearings and to see with the lights on. She woudl see her mother for sure and either go to her mother or check on her kids.  She would not know what is going on exactly and be lost, she was vacant and lost alot anyway because of her medication.  If she recognized what was going on then I don't think she would try to escape without her kids.  Them in bed says she didn't try to run but rather either never woke up until Jeremy woke her or before she could think of what to do Jeremy was back upstairs.

 

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio, have you noticed the Anschutz in the photo is not the actual murder weapon, in that there is no damage to the wooden stock where a piece was broken off. This photo was featured in the "Murder Casebook" magazine no.7 about the WHF murders, and like others in there is attributed to the Anglia Press Agency. So I presume this other rifle was also found at WHF and could have been the one belonging to Anthony Pargeter?

Although I can't place exactly where in WHF that area/cupboard is from the photo.

I was under the impression the photo was just some random guy who happened to have the same kind of weapon and thus used for illustrative purposes.  It is someone related to the case? 

[Myster]

I was under the impression the photo was just some random guy who happened to have the same kind of weapon and thus used for illustrative purposes.  It is someone related to the case?

Could be a plain clothes police officer. The other 1985-6 period photos in the mag of Julie Mugford , Stan Jones, the Boutflours etc. also belonged to the Anglia Press Agency, ie. from East Anglia - Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex. So perhaps it was taken in WHF around that time.