Author Topic: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?  (Read 23437 times)

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Offline John

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2014, 05:56:39 PM »
You don't have to be an ex copper to understand that the mccanns were in a state of blind panic..

Furthermore john you don't have to be a copper to understand that the PJ should have done a thorough investigation on the bed clothes...which was never done

Blind panic or blind stupidity fuelled by a few glasses of vino?

I have never undertood why the PJ failed to secure the bedclothes, that is basic forensics as was everything else Maddie came into contact with including cuddlecat.

Should the question not really be, was the apartment intentionally trashed?  And as for Gerry allegedly going outside to footer with the shutters...how bloody stupid was that!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 06:01:40 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline gilet

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2014, 05:57:25 PM »
You don't have to be an ex copper to realise that if your child has disappeared and there are indications that she might have be taken out a window that you protect the scene and especially the bedroom and bedding where she was last seen.

There is plenty of evidence that the McCanns did not trash the scene. (Have you not seen the photo of the bed for example?) There is no evidence to support the claim that Stephen made that the McCanns trashed the apartment. It seems he simply lied about that as he did about the Trial in Portugal revealing posters acting on behalf of the McCanns.

However the idea that parents in their panic would be thinking of the preservation of a crime scene rather than just desperately doing everything they could to find the child, understand how she had vanished and that they might refuse help from friends in their desperate searching, is I think, rather naive.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 06:01:08 PM by gilet »

Offline gilet

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2014, 06:00:05 PM »
what i dont understand is why did kate wash cuddlecat wouldnt it of had maddies DNA on it from maddie carrying it around etc  it would have been  easier then gerry  going back to the uk for  a pillow or whatever

There is quite a lot that it appears you don't understand.

The fact that the need was for a sample of DNA specifically related only to Madeleine has clearly passed you by.

You would do well to read the relevant part of the files I think and then might understand the need for a reference sample as opposed to a general family sample. Or did you not realise that cuddle cat might also have had DNA from the twins and from Kate and Gerry?


Offline gilet

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2014, 06:11:15 PM »
Blind panic or blind stupidity fuelled by a few glasses of vino?

I have never undertood why the PJ failed to secure the bedclothes, that is basic forensics as was everything else Maddie came into contact with including cuddlecat.

Should the question not really be, was the apartment intentionally trashed?  And as for Gerry allegedly going outside to footer with the shutters...how bloody stupid was that!

How much wine are you suggesting the McCanns had drunk?
Don't you think that a missing child is sufficient to cause a parent to panic? Or do you think that would only happen if somehow partially intoxicated or worse?

The truth is that a child going missing for only a few seconds can instil blind panic in a parent. When that child remains missing for minutes and longer that panic increases. Whether you have had two, three or more glasses of wine or not makes not a jot of difference.

I am glad, though, that you are agreeing with me that Stephen is wrong when he blames the fact that Madeleine is still missing on ONLY the parents. The flawed PJ investigation may well have been a contributory factor as well. As might any abductor who could have been involved.  Madeleine may well have been found had the PJ done a better job.

The apartment was not trashed at all. No matter whether there was intent or not. The photos prove that.

As for the parents trying to understand the way that their child may have been taken from the apartment or may even have left of her own accord, then I can see why that would be part of their actions. I doubt that anyone in the situation they were in would be thinkng as clearly as you appear to suggest.

Parents panic and their actions are not logical when trying to deal with that kind of situation.

As I said before, even though the situation was not comparable, the loss of the sunglasses I had borrowed meant that I was most certainly not acting logically. I even insisted that a friend's room that I had never entered was searched in case they glasses had somehow got in there.



Offline Benice

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2014, 06:12:46 PM »
You don't have to be an ex copper to realise that if your child has disappeared and there are indications that she might have be taken out a window that you protect the scene and especially the bedroom and bedding where she was last seen.


The first thing the GNR officer who was first to arrive on the the scene did - was to go round searching the whole apartment for Madeleine.    IMO  It should have been fairly obvious to him that if she was there - she would have been found by the time he arrived.    Duh?   

The idea that it was the frantic parent's responsiblity to protect the scene and not his and the other police officer's responsibility is too preposterous for words IMO.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2014, 06:18:08 PM »
Blind panic or blind stupidity fuelled by a few glasses of vino?

I have never undertood why the PJ failed to secure the bedclothes, that is basic forensics as was everything else Maddie came into contact with including cuddlecat.

Should the question not really be, was the apartment intentionally trashed?  And as for Gerry allegedly going outside to footer with the shutters...how bloody stupid was that!
Intentionally trashed by whom?  In what way was the apartment "trashed" prior to the arrival of the GNR?  Why is it "bloody stupid" to try and ascertain if the shutters had been tampered with?  Do you think it would have been better for the McCanns to have gingerly tip-toed out of the kids' bedroom once they realised that Madeleine was not there and then sit on their hands waiting for the GNR to turn up?  Is that what you would have done?

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2014, 06:33:29 PM »
Intentionally trashed by whom?  In what way was the apartment "trashed" prior to the arrival of the GNR?  Why is it "bloody stupid" to try and ascertain if the shutters had been tampered with?  Do you think it would have been better for the McCanns to have gingerly tip-toed out of the kids' bedroom once they realised that Madeleine was not there and then sit on their hands waiting for the GNR to turn up?  Is that what you would have done?

Kate 'knew straight away she'd been taken y'know'.....
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id235.html

...And the shutters were up & the window was open & she's not lying about that.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

So it was pretty bleedin obvious this was a crime scene & that she had been abducted, on their version & yet they didn't call the police, either of em. There's absolutely nothing suspicious about that is there.

Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2014, 06:51:58 PM »
Kate 'knew straight away she'd been taken y'know'.....
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id235.html

...And the shutters were up & the window was open & she's not lying about that.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

So it was pretty bleedin obvious this was a crime scene & that she had been abducted, on their version & yet they didn't call the police, either of em. There's absolutely nothing suspicious about that is there.
If you came home and found that your child had been stabbed, with a knife sticking out of his chest and he appeared to be alive still, would you back off and wait for the ambulance and police to arrive so you didn't contaminate the crime scene?  I bet you would wouldn't you?  Only a fool would trash a crime scene!

Offline Carana

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2014, 07:10:46 PM »
what i dont understand is why did kate wash cuddlecat wouldnt it of had maddies DNA on it from maddie carrying it around etc  it would have been  easier then gerry  going back to the uk for  a pillow or whatever

a. A reference DNA sample is not normally sought from a crime scene, Carly.

b. The PJ didn't ask for it to even check on anyone else's potential DNA.

Offline pegasus

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »

The first thing the GNR officer who was first to arrive on the the scene did - was to go round searching the whole apartment for Madeleine.    IMO  It should have been fairly obvious to him that if she was there - she would have been found by the time he arrived.    Duh?...
The family and the police searched the residence and completely failed to find the missing girl who was actually right there under their noses during their so-called "complete" search of the residence. They all thought they had fully searched the residence. But they hadn't - they omitted places in their search. Like under a pile of clothes. Duh. (Zyia Turner case in Detroit).

Offline Carana

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2014, 07:18:07 PM »
I don't blame any of the first people on the scene: the parents/friends/OC staff / GNR.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

As far as anyone knew during that first hour or so of panic, she could have been found quickly somewhere in the vicinity.

Offline Carana

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2014, 07:28:03 PM »
The GNR don't normally deal with this sort of situation in PT from what I can gather... if they suspect a crime that is out of their remit, they have to check first, then contact the PJ.

I don't have a problem that they also checked the apartment to make absolutely sure that she wasn't in there. What I do have a problem with is that Amaral didn't understand why the sofa had been squashed against the curtains in the PJ photo taken later than night and found it suspicious. Didn't he realise that the GNR had checked the apartment?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2014, 07:30:41 PM »
The term "rummaged" was used in the archiving report.
The first GNR officers on the scene said there were four or five people in the apartment when they arrived. The GNR officers  looked for the child as they said they did not perceive the apartment to be a crime scene and were sceptical of the claim the child had been abducted.
So we have parents friends and police equally guilty of "rummaging".
Beyond that there is plenty of scope for speculation.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carana

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2014, 07:36:47 PM »
The term "rummaged" was used in the archiving report.
The first GNR officers on the scene said there were four or five people in the apartment when they arrived. The GNR officers  looked for the child as they said they did not perceive the apartment to be a crime scene and were sceptical of the claim the child had been abducted.
So we have parents friends and police equally guilty of "rummaging".
Beyond that there is plenty of scope for speculation.

Welcome.

Which word in Portuguese was translated as "rummaging"?

Offline Montclair

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2014, 07:37:24 PM »
a. A reference DNA sample is not normally sought from a crime scene, Carly.

b. The PJ didn't ask for it to even check on anyone else's potential DNA.

In Portugal, no one can obtain a DNA sample without a court order.