Was the slamming door connected to an escape via bedroom patio door?

[Brietta]

Also his fingerprint was on the edge of the sliding lounge balcony door. The forensics photo of that print was later mistakenly taken to be a photo of a KM print on the edge of the sliding child bedroom window, and that is how KM got wrongly accused of opening the window.
But back to the slamming child bedroom door, I do not see the advantage gained by making such a thing up.
I think she is telling the truth - the door did slam.

I absolutely agree with you; I have no doubt it happened as she said.

[sadie]

In the PJ photo it looks like the adult bedroom to balcony door hinges on both sides - I had a flat with a door just like it.

Back to the child bedroom door, I am agreeing with you completely Sadie, that it did slam exactly as KM describes.

A draught which is insufficient to slam a well open door may be easily sufficient to slam an almost shut door.
Basic physics - exactly in accord with KM's description - it didn't slam while well open, it slammed only after being placed in the almost shut position.

Think about it Pegasus.


The parents bedroom faces due south.   There is no balcony above to give shade


That bedroom would get unbearable in high summer, even with air con, which I dont think they had anyhow.


The residual heat would prevent sleep, so how did they cool / ventilate the room?



Are you seriously suggesting that they would leave a hinged door ajar?  What would happen with a big hinged door if the wind suddenly got up?   In fact what would happen with a hinged door even in mild winds?   The room had to be ventialted and have the ability to lose its heat.
Hinged doors are not sensible, nor practical.


But a sliding door would not swing open so would not react wildly to a sudden wind.  It could have a device in the track at the far end from the open end that would prevent it being opened by a stranger in the night, or even in the day.


Those doors, by logic, are sliders .... dont you agree?


Also, I have seen no hinges.

[sadie]

In the PJ photo it looks like the adult bedroom to balcony door hinges on both sides - I had a flat with a door just like it.

Back to the child bedroom door, I am agreeing with you completely Sadie, that it did slam exactly as KM describes.

A draught which is insufficient to slam a well open door may be easily sufficient to slam an almost shut door.
Basic physics - exactly in accord with KM's description - it didn't slam while well open, it slammed only after being placed in the almost shut position.

I am glad we agree on this. 


I admire your tenacity, but also feel the need to pioint things out when I disagree. 


Hope you dont mind.

[Brietta]

Think about it Pegasus.


The parents bedroom faces due south.   There is no balcony above to give shade


That bedroom would get unbearable in high summer, even with air con, which I dont think they had anyhow.


The residual heat would prevent sleep, so how did they cool / ventilate the room?



Are you seriously suggesting that they would leave a hinged door ajar?  What would happen with a big hinged door if the wind suddenly got up?   In fact what would happen with a hinged door even in mild winds?   The room had to be ventialted and have the ability to lose its heat.
Hinged doors are not sensible, nor practical.


But a sliding door would not swing open so would not react wildly to a sudden wind.  It could have a device in the track at the far end from the open end that would prevent it being opened by a stranger in the night, or even in the day.


Those doors, by logic, are sliders .... dont you agree?


Also, I have seen no hinges.

Probably just for balance and the look of it ... IMO if one set of doors were sliders, both would be.  Also it would be cheaper for builders to source and use doors and windows all of the same type and using the same fittings to buy in bulk from the manufacturer.

[pegasus]

@Sadie. Looking at the photo again, I see now that the adult bedroom to balcony door is likely be sliding.
@Brietta. Yes I see now it matches in style the lounge sliding door - similar handle, similar crossmembers.
It's good we agree it is a door, which one can walk in and out of.

[sadie]

@Sadie. Looking at the photo again, I see now that the adult bedroom to balcony door is likely be sliding.
@Brietta. Yes I see now it matches in style the lounge sliding door - similar handle, similar crossmembers.
It's good we agree it is a door, which one can walk in and out of.

Yep, and was it left partially open to cool the bedroom.  That is the question thta we shall never know the answer to !

But I bet SY know the answer .... and they are the ones who matter !




I just wonder why this bedroom patio door was ignored before?


Anyway, I am zonked and I promised a friend an email.  Think it will have to wait until tomorrow now


Nigh Night.

[pegasus]

@Sadie. Interesting. Do you think that in the PJ photo the sliding door from adult bedroom to balcony is partly open?

If the adult bedroom sliding door was partly open during KM check, that might provide an explanation for the through-draught, which slammed the child bedroom door as KM describes. (She had closed the lounge sliding door behind her, therefore the draught cannot have been passing through the lounge sliding door).

[sadie]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto17.jpg
@Sadie. Interesting. Do you think that in the PJ photo the sliding door from adult bedroom to balcony is partly open?

If the adult bedroom sliding door was partly open during KM check, that might provide an explanation for the through-draught, which slammed the child bedroom door as KM describes. (She had closed the lounge sliding door behind her, therefore the draught cannot have been passing through the lounge sliding door).

Pegasus,

i would have to look at a lot of photographs to decide that. 

But in any case, with people buzzing around them, it makes sense that as it had gone cooler it might have been closed to stop unwanteds coming in.


It is another case of we really dont know and we cant trust photos taken at least two hours afterwards, cos things like that could have changed.



What troubles me is that if it was open, or even unlocked at the time of the abduction, it could have been the entrance route for the abductor ... or if Jane saw another man, even the exit route with Madeleine 


BRRRRR... Sends a shiver up my spine that Kate might have come in as he hurriedly left via the bedroom patio door.
But if he did use this route, it could have happened at any time between Gerrys seeing Madeleine and Kate finding her gone.


I dont think it a likely theory, but it is not impossible if the sliding dooir was the silent type


But no-one seems to have even considered it.   Jeez !

[Brietta]

Pegasus,

i would have to look at a lot of photographs to decide that. 

But in any case, with people buzzing around them, it makes sense that as it had gone cooler it might have been closed to stop unwanteds coming in.


It is another case of we really dont know and we cant trust photos taken at least two hours afterwards, cos things like that could have changed.



What troubles me is that if it was open, or even unlocked at the time of the abduction, it could have been the entrance route for the abductor ... or if Jane saw another man, even the exit route with Madeleine 


BRRRRR... Sends a shiver up my spine that Kate might have come in as he hurriedly left via the bedroom patio door.
But if he did use this route, it could have happened at any time between Gerrys seeing Madeleine and Kate finding her gone.


I dont think it a likely theory, but it is not impossible if the sliding dooir was the silent type


But no-one seems to have even considered it.   Jeez !

I think it is as likely a theory as any which have been put forward. 

I was told by one who knew that it was exceedingly difficult to plan an escape from an Italian POW camp in WW2 one reason being their patrols were intermittent and often just when the guards felt like it; whereas a POW in a German camp could have set a watch by their patrols.
Perhaps Dr McCann caught the intruder unaware because of the itermittant nature of the checks on the children.

   i: Intruder has entered the apartment via the front door.

  ii: Enters the children’s bedroom and opens the window for whatever reason.

 iii: Lifts Madeleine and leaves the room with the intention of exiting either via the patio or the front door.

  iv: Disturbed when hearing Dr McCann’s arrival.

   v: Enters nearest bolthole which is parents’ bedroom.

  vi: Takes the opportunity to leave by opening the bedroom exterior door.

 vii: The draft which causes the door to slam is caused.

viii: Closes the door and makes good his/her escape while Dr McCann is searching the apartment for Madeleine.

While Dr McCann was leaning out of the bedroom window he/she could have been legging it along the lane at the back of the apartments, or taken the riskier route out via the gate and into a waiting vehicle, but the very few minutes spent checking the appartment might have been the window of opportunity required for a clean getaway.

Unless there was a valid reason for that method of egress not being considered at the time (although I think the GNR officer who left the palm print did investigate it) to me it is a workable scenario and is certainly a more viable theory than the one to which Dr Amaral subscribed.

[valeria]

could someone lurking in parent's  bedroom balcony without being noticed from those who were  going up and down the stairs during the checks?
she/he could know when someone entered or left the apartment without seeing them but just hearing  to steps and patio door opening.

is there access from  the one balcony to the other or they are separated by a wall?

[Brietta]

could someone lurking in parent's  bedroom balcony without being noticed from those who were  going up and down the stairs during the checks?
she/he could know when someone entered or left the apartment without seeing them but just hearing  to steps and patio door opening.

is there access from  the one balcony to the other or they are separated by a wall?

I'm not even sure there is a balcony outside the bedroom let alone separated by a wall, which would probably blow that part of my 'theory' out of the water. I'll look out for a picture of the back of the apartment block which can determine the truth of the matter.

I think the layout of flat would allow an intruder to hide undiscovered in the back bedroom while listening till the coast was clear.

[valeria]

I'm not even sure there is a balcony outside the bedroom let alone separated by a wall, which would probably blow that part of my 'theory' out of the water. I'll look out for a picture of the back of the apartment block which can determine the truth of the matter.

I think the layout of flat would allow an intruder to hide undiscovered in the back bedroom while listening till the coast was clear.

I am  almost certain there is a balcony outside parent's bedroom. what we dont know , at least i have never seen any report , is either the  door to this balcony was open or not.

[Brietta]

I am  almost certain there is a balcony outside parent's bedroom. what we dont know , at least i have never seen any report , is either the  door to this balcony was open or not.

You are correct, valeria, as I am sure the attached images will confirm.
There is indeed a dividing wall but there is a connecting pathway to the stairs. 

If the Drs McCann had left the bedroom door locked on their departure, I am sure the key would have been left in the lock and the intruder could have unlocked it easily; in the later confusion I imagine it has been overlooked to be investigated whether it was locked or unlocked because it was evident that the main patio door had been left unlocked.

Certainly it is one possibility for the slam of the bedroom door.

[sadie]

Am in a rush, have a massive skip arrived to fill.

But a couple of photos, there are others.  Look at the top and lower photo.  See any differences apart from the light and a slightly different frame to the photos?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwviewfrompatio.jpg


OK both photos are taken from in front of the patio windows looking over towards the tapas restaurant and bar. 


You see the building on the RH side.  That is the end of the parents bedroom and the patio / opening doors are out of sight around the corner of the building.


As you can see at the top of the stairs the patio continues as a narrow walkway around the corner out of sight. 
The walkway is only narrow, but it allows anyone to leave or enter the bedroom via the steps and or patio area.



It is at the back of the building but in front of the bedroom.   [if that makes sense !


The middle photo is taken from the narrow walkway in front of the parents bedroom looking towards the steps and patio area.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_21_small1.jpg




Now what is different between the two photos, and why?



Have to go now, work to do. 



PS. There is another photo somewhere which gives a clearer idea.

ETA:  Too late, you beat me to it Brietts !

[pathfinder73]

I think it is as likely a theory as any which have been put forward. 

I was told by one who knew that it was exceedingly difficult to plan an escape from an Italian POW camp in WW2 one reason being their patrols were intermittent and often just when the guards felt like it; whereas a POW in a German camp could have set a watch by their patrols.
Perhaps Dr McCann caught the intruder unaware because of the itermittant nature of the checks on the children.

   i: Intruder has entered the apartment via the front door.

  ii: Enters the children’s bedroom and opens the window for whatever reason.

 iii: Lifts Madeleine and leaves the room with the intention of exiting either via the patio or the front door.

  iv: Disturbed when hearing Dr McCann’s arrival.

   v: Enters nearest bolthole which is parents’ bedroom.

  vi: Takes the opportunity to leave by opening the bedroom exterior door.

 vii: The draft which causes the door to slam is caused.

viii: Closes the door and makes good his/her escape while Dr McCann is searching the apartment for Madeleine.

While Dr McCann was leaning out of the bedroom window he/she could have been legging it along the lane at the back of the apartments, or taken the riskier route out via the gate and into a waiting vehicle, but the very few minutes spent checking the appartment might have been the window of opportunity required for a clean getaway.

Unless there was a valid reason for that method of egress not being considered at the time (although I think the GNR officer who left the palm print did investigate it) to me it is a workable scenario and is certainly a more viable theory than the one to which Dr Amaral subscribed.

There was nothing difficult about this plan. You make your move quickly once everyone has arrived at the table/alibi. Can't meet them outside now.