Author Topic: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"  (Read 44044 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« on: September 16, 2014, 07:53:00 AM »
We know what evidence mean and we know what reliable means...so Grime is saying that the alerts are not reliable evidence...what's your interpretation of these words.

We don't want another 100 pages of the dogs don't lie...very specifically...what does Grime mean
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 09:39:47 PM by John »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 10:43:28 AM »
We know what evidence mean and we know what reliable means...so Grime is saying that the alerts are not reliable evidence...what's your interpretation of these words.

We don't want another 100 pages of the dogs don't lie...very specifically...what does Grime mean

The alerts are evidence, merely uncorroborated.

The lack of forensic corroboration does not mean that the dogs didn't alert to a body.

Offline Brietta

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 11:08:32 AM »
Martin Grime had no idea to what Eddie was alerting or from where the ‘scent of death’ was emanating. 

I believe he was genuinely puzzled by this alert.

I find it interesting that the caveat was that it could have emanated from anywhere else in the room and had just gathered in that particular corner.

That doesn’t work for me as imo that would have required a primary findable source to generate a moving scent in the first place.  There are instances where a cadaver dog has alerted in the vicinity of a body buried outdoors (not to the body or place of burial) which subsequent digging has uncovered; Eddie alerted in the corner of an enclosed room for no discernible reason.

Is ‘the scent of death’ a miasma which continually flits about from place to place as the notion takes it for weeks, months and years? because that seems to be the only way in which Eddie's alert could have occurred.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 11:39:26 AM »
Martin Grime had no idea to what Eddie was alerting or from where the ‘scent of death’ was emanating. 

I believe he was genuinely puzzled by this alert.

I find it interesting that the caveat was that it could have emanated from anywhere else in the room and had just gathered in that particular corner.

That doesn’t work for me as imo that would have required a primary findable source to generate a moving scent in the first place.  There are instances where a cadaver dog has alerted in the vicinity of a body buried outdoors (not to the body or place of burial) which subsequent digging has uncovered; Eddie alerted in the corner of an enclosed room for no discernible reason.

Is ‘the scent of death’ a miasma which continually flits about from place to place as the notion takes it for weeks, months and years? because that seems to be the only way in which Eddie's alert could have occurred.

You believe in the mccanns abduction story.

The dogs indications show something else may have happened.

So you are never going to say anything else, are you ?

 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Offline Brietta

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 11:51:35 AM »
You believe in the mccanns abduction story.

The dogs indications show something else may have happened.

So you are never going to say anything else, are you ?

 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Seems to put you in a different camp from me and Martin Grime.

I do not pretend to know why Eddie barked ... neither does he.

The clue may lie in the opinion that these specialist dogs were brought on site much, much later than they should have been.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 11:52:52 AM »
Martin Grime had no idea to what Eddie was alerting or from where the ‘scent of death’ was emanating. 

I believe he was genuinely puzzled by this alert.

I find it interesting that the caveat was that it could have emanated from anywhere else in the room and had just gathered in that particular corner.

That doesn’t work for me as imo that would have required a primary findable source to generate a moving scent in the first place.  There are instances where a cadaver dog has alerted in the vicinity of a body buried outdoors (not to the body or place of burial) which subsequent digging has uncovered; Eddie alerted in the corner of an enclosed room for no discernible reason.

Is ‘the scent of death’ a miasma which continually flits about from place to place as the notion takes it for weeks, months and years? because that seems to be the only way in which Eddie's alert could have occurred.

Grime said it doesn't necessarily mean the scent source was inside the wardrobe (he said cupboard in the footage). You need to corroborate with other evidence. Grime has no doubts about his dogs alerts.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 11:55:58 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 02:33:19 PM »
Grime said it doesn't necessarily mean the scent source was inside the wardrobe (he said cupboard in the footage). You need to corroborate with other evidence. Grime has no doubts about his dogs alerts.

Where did I mention wardrobe?

That was just a myth as illustrated by Dr Amaral when he pointed out the shelf in the wardrobe Eddie had alerted to in his documentary so it became common currency that was where Madeleine had been hidden. 

Eddie alerted in the corner … not the wardrobe.

If you read what Martin Grime says very carefully he asserts the alert was triggered by the build up of scent in that corner emanating from a physical source. 

“If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner.”

Martin Grime mentions a source enabling the accumulation of a scent ... so where is that source?

That is certainly in line with what I have said about cadaver dogs alerting some distance from the cadaver. 
In other words they scented the body or parts of a body some distance from the location.

Human decomposition = scent, which may or may not be discernible to the human nose = dog alert = finding source of alert even if some distance away = evidence.

Using that example … a valid one according to what Martin Grime has stated … to what did Eddie alert because for sure it wasn’t human detritus or anything which is evidential.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 02:43:06 PM »
Hang on a minute...if Eddie will alert to a smell at some distance from the source of that smell, then the source of that smell may well be (for example) dried blood from a living human, in a different part of the room or building.  The blood dog however would not alert to the same spot as Eddie would do in that case, so the dog alert would be classed (by some) as showing the one time presence of a cadaver but this would not necessarily be the case.  Sorry, if this has all been said before but it's only just occurred to me!

Offline xtina

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2014, 02:55:02 PM »
15/19 or 15/37 & 100% or NOT 100%





There are people in the world who are convinced that Madeleine McCann was not abducted. They believe that Kate & Gerry McCann hid Madeleine's body following her death. One central plank of evidence in this hypothesis is the DNA that was found in the boot of the car hired by the McCann's about three weeks after Madeleine was reported missing. They argue that the only way her DNA could have been in the car is if they moved her body at some time after they hired the car.
 
There has been considerable debate about whether the DNA profile obtained contained Madeleine's DNA or not. The report by the now disbanded FSS (Forensic Science Service) says clearly that it is impossible to say for certain. Unfortunately it does not go on to say anything else about this sample. There is no attempt to say how likely it is that the DNA came from Madeleine or not. So we are left not knowing whether the chance it is Madeliene's DNA is 1%, 50%, or 99%. All we know is that according to John Lowe of the now defunked FSS that it is not 100%.

http://my-mccann-thoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/1519-or-1537-100-or-not-100.html

www.jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10366p20-my-mccann-thoughts-blog-not-blogging-any-more
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 05:12:19 PM by John »
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline Brietta

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2014, 02:56:29 PM »
Hang on a minute...if Eddie will alert to a smell at some distance from the source of that smell, then the source of that smell may well be (for example) dried blood from a living human, in a different part of the room or building.  The blood dog however would not alert to the same spot as Eddie would do in that case, so the dog alert would be classed (by some) as showing the one time presence of a cadaver but this would not necessarily be the case.  Sorry, if this has all been said before but it's only just occurred to me!

I do not believe it has been said before ... wood and trees and should have gone to specsavers all pop into the same sentence.

Just as there was no cadaver alert to the Renault or to Cuddlecat in the cupboard or to behind the couch in 5a I have come to the conclusion that neither was there a cadaver alert in the bedroom of 5a.

There was such an investment in these so called alerts that some of us should have known better than to take them at face value, which is what we indisputably have done.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2014, 03:00:40 PM »
Seems to put you in a different camp from me and Martin Grime.

I do not pretend to know why Eddie barked ... neither does he.

The clue may lie in the opinion that these specialist dogs were brought on site much, much later than they should have been.

Anything to denounce an alternative to the abduction.

Pure mccann supporter MANTRA.

Offline xtina

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 03:14:53 PM »
....its not been proved that there was no DNA evidence........or that there was ....

now don't you think the mccs should have sorted this ........they are not fools .......they were to busy boosting up the fund .....to hire there eleven top paid lawyers want they .....


Why weren't these things done?
 



I am at a complete loss to explain why these things or at least some of them were not done. The case was huge worldwide news at the time. The McCann's were being suspected of disposing of Maddy's body. The evidence from the single sample in the car boot suggested that could be the case but was inconclusive. Here was a great opportunity to either clear the McCann's or gather evidence that would help to prove they did dispose of Maddy's body.

Why did no one.... NOT EVEN THE McCANN's themselves..... insist that this car was examined thoroughly and every scrap of evidence extracted?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 08:45:45 PM by John »
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2014, 03:33:40 PM »
Some people just don't seem to understand that the McCanns were cleared of their suspect status many years ago and therefore have no need to have the forensic evidence re-examined.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2014, 03:42:24 PM »
Where did I mention wardrobe?

That was just a myth as illustrated by Dr Amaral when he pointed out the shelf in the wardrobe Eddie had alerted to in his documentary so it became common currency that was where Madeleine had been hidden. 

Eddie alerted in the corner … not the wardrobe.

If you read what Martin Grime says very carefully he asserts the alert was triggered by the build up of scent in that corner emanating from a physical source. 

“If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner.”

Martin Grime mentions a source enabling the accumulation of a scent ... so where is that source?

That is certainly in line with what I have said about cadaver dogs alerting some distance from the cadaver. 
In other words they scented the body or parts of a body some distance from the location.

Human decomposition = scent, which may or may not be discernible to the human nose = dog alert = finding source of alert even if some distance away = evidence.

Using that example … a valid one according to what Martin Grime has stated … to what did Eddie alert because for sure it wasn’t human detritus or anything which is evidential.

Eddie sniffed the shelf and alerted. It's on film and it connects to the shelf with the pile of clothes on that were possibly emptied out of a bag that is not seen in 5A crime scene photos taken on the night. But Grime said it doesn't necessarily mean that the wardrobe was the scent source.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence." (Martin Grime)

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: What does Grime mean by "No evidential reliability"
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2014, 03:42:57 PM »
The alerts are evidence, merely uncorroborated.

The lack of forensic corroboration does not mean that the dogs didn't alert to a body.

Evidence with no reliability...any way you try to spin it