Author Topic: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police  (Read 237187 times)

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Offline Carew

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #450 on: October 15, 2014, 10:18:22 AM »
Do all these blustering "heartfelt" posts mean that pre-empting authorised investigations by the police by "dossier-wavers" selecting and confronting their own chosen targets via the press is approved of, then  .............or not?

Do you think there will be more such doorsteppings, or might the dossier compilers be on dodgy ground both legally and morally in "researching" and confronting their own choice of target ?






Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #451 on: October 15, 2014, 10:20:12 AM »
The law relating to this is complex and undeveloped, with little modern case law as yet.  But it may be helpful to  try to make some sense of all this:

In law, you can distinguish between

(a) real, identifyable people.  (e.g. The McCanns, Amaral, Bennett etc)

(b) Those who are anaonymous, and hide behind a username (e.g Sweepyface, Biretta, Stephen2500, Wonderfulspan, jean-pierre).

And also between
 
(c) Combatants (for want of a better term ) - those who actively participate in discussions online on twitter, facebook, blogs, forums etc - e.g. those in (b) and those in category (a) who do engage in online activity.  (e.g. Bennett, and those whose real identity is revealed

(d) Non Combatants - those who do not engage in online stuff - e.g. The McCanns, Amaral.

Of course the boundaries between these can get blurred, but for the sake of this they will have to do. 

In law, while someone is identifyable only by a usename, they cannot suffer injury.  i.e. J-P can call Stephen2500 or wonderfulspam or biretta whatever he wants, and accuse them of whatever he likes, with no consequences at all in law.  So getting exercised about Vee's posting is not correct - at this point.  There is no criminal or civil action that can be taken.

All users must be aware that they may be identified.  Maybe by being "outed" But also their ISP can be forced to reveal details of the user, where there is a possibility of civil or criminal action.   

So people in categories (b) and (c) can go at each other hammer and tongs, if they so wish.  In fact some forums have a sort of "rumpus room" where anything goes. 

But as soon as they start on categories (a) and (d) they run a serious risk of falling foul of the criminal law, or of facing action for defamation. 

Of course, once someone is actually unmasked, they may themselves then fall into both category (a) and (c).  At this point they may be able to take action against those abusing them, and invoke a criminal complaint or a civil action.  However, their own posting history would be considered, and the principle of volenti non fit injuria (to he who is willing no harm can be done) will come into play, and so someone with a vitriolic posting history who is subsequently unmasked and identified would be unlikely to succeed in any legal action.     

Which underlines the sense of only posting things online that you would say face to face.  You never know when you might be called on it.  This applies to both sides, of course.

But I would be fascinated to see evidence of the actual scale of abuse directed at McCann doubters.  (those in category (b) and (c) do not count, obviously.   
 

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #452 on: October 15, 2014, 10:25:30 AM »
Do all these blustering "heartfelt" posts mean that pre-empting authorised investigations by the police by "dossier-wavers" selecting and confronting their own chosen targets via the press is approved of, then  .............or not?

Do you think there will be more such doorsteppings, or might the dossier compilers be on dodgy ground both legally and morally in "researching" and confronting their own choice of target ?
If I were to now send that list of "waterboarding" tweets to the police and the media (and remember that list is only a fraction of the total number) would that be illegal or morally wrong in your view? 

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #453 on: October 15, 2014, 10:27:49 AM »
You do realize ferryman, that works both ways.

How do i know, or for that matter anybody else, whether or not people have been making posts/tweets to throw bad light on those who don't believe the mccamns ?


An inherent possibility.

IMO of course.

Those who don't believe the McCanns have little (or no) leg to stand on.

The British police believe they are innocent.

They Portuguese police believe they are innocent.

The Portuguese prosecutors who presided over the shelved enquiry believe they are innocent.

The renewed investigation is not into the McCanns or any of their friends.

What more do you want?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #454 on: October 15, 2014, 10:35:23 AM »
Those who don't believe the McCanns have little (or no) leg to stand on.

The British police believe they are innocent.

They Portuguese police believe they are innocent.

The Portuguese prosecutors who presided over the shelved enquiry believe they are innocent.

The renewed investigation is not into the McCanns or any of their friends.

What more do you want?

Easy to answer.

Evidence of a CRIME THAT WILL STAND UP IN COURT.

and the nature of the crime to be ascertained.

Then tell me why the Portuguese have 'changed their mind;, if there is nae evidence.

P.S. A 'belief' is not proof. Is it ferryman ?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 10:37:25 AM by stephen25000 »

Offline Carew

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #455 on: October 15, 2014, 10:36:08 AM »
If I were to now send that list of "waterboarding" tweets to the police and the media (and remember that list is only a fraction of the total number) would that be illegal or morally wrong in your view?

You miss the point...............Of course sending lists of tweets to the police wouldn`t be morally or legally wrong in my view..........or anybody else`s.

Do you not see the difference between that and the unauthorised "researching/stalking" and D.I.Y. pre-emptive confronting of a target by yourselves via the press ?

It is for the law to investigate these matters from both sides of the McCann issue............Not dossier wavers who are frustrated because they aren`t getting their own way in terms of "action" against their selected targets.


Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #456 on: October 15, 2014, 10:44:30 AM »
You miss the point...............Of course sending lists of tweets to the police wouldn`t be morally or legally wrong in my view..........or anybody else`s.

Do you not see the difference between that and the unauthorised "researching/stalking" and D.I.Y. pre-emptive confronting of a target by yourselves via the press ?

It is for the law to investigate these matters from both sides of the McCann issue............Not dossier wavers who are frustrated because they aren`t getting their own way in terms of "action" against their selected targets.

I'm not sure I follow.  Are you blaming McCann supporters for the actions of Sky News?   

Out of interest, do you think the media has no place in exposing potential criminal activity?  Should for example the Telegraph have kept quiet when it received information about the MPS expenses fiddling, for fear it might cost the MPs in question their reputation, livelihoods and possibly send one or two of them over the edge? 

Offline Brietta

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #457 on: October 15, 2014, 10:48:10 AM »
The law relating to this is complex and undeveloped, with little modern case law as yet.  But it may be helpful to  try to make some sense of all this:

In law, you can distinguish between

(a) real, identifyable people.  (e.g. The McCanns, Amaral, Bennett etc)

(b) Those who are anaonymous, and hide behind a username (e.g Sweepyface, Biretta, Stephen2500, Wonderfulspan, jean-pierre).

And also between
 
(c) Combatants (for want of a better term ) - those who actively participate in discussions online on twitter, facebook, blogs, forums etc - e.g. those in (b) and those in category (a) who do engage in online activity.  (e.g. Bennett, and those whose real identity is revealed

(d) Non Combatants - those who do not engage in online stuff - e.g. The McCanns, Amaral.

Of course the boundaries between these can get blurred, but for the sake of this they will have to do. 

In law, while someone is identifyable only by a usename, they cannot suffer injury.  i.e. J-P can call Stephen2500 or wonderfulspam or biretta whatever he wants, and accuse them of whatever he likes, with no consequences at all in law.  So getting exercised about Vee's posting is not correct - at this point.  There is no criminal or civil action that can be taken.

All users must be aware that they may be identified.  Maybe by being "outed" But also their ISP can be forced to reveal details of the user, where there is a possibility of civil or criminal action.   

So people in categories (b) and (c) can go at each other hammer and tongs, if they so wish.  In fact some forums have a sort of "rumpus room" where anything goes. 

But as soon as they start on categories (a) and (d) they run a serious risk of falling foul of the criminal law, or of facing action for defamation. 

Of course, once someone is actually unmasked, they may themselves then fall into both category (a) and (c).  At this point they may be able to take action against those abusing them, and invoke a criminal complaint or a civil action.  However, their own posting history would be considered, and the principle of volenti non fit injuria (to he who is willing no harm can be done) will come into play, and so someone with a vitriolic posting history who is subsequently unmasked and identified would be unlikely to succeed in any legal action.     

Which underlines the sense of only posting things online that you would say face to face.  You never know when you might be called on it.  This applies to both sides, of course.

But I would be fascinated to see evidence of the actual scale of abuse directed at McCann doubters.  (those in category (b) and (c) do not count, obviously.   
 

    8((()*/   Excellent post, J-P, very easy to understand.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #458 on: October 15, 2014, 10:49:34 AM »
I'm not sure I follow.  Are you blaming McCann supporters for the actions of Sky News?   

Out of interest, do you think the media has no place in exposing potential criminal activity?  Should for example the Telegraph have kept quiet when it received information about the MPS expenses fiddling, for fear it might cost the MPs in question their reputation, livelihoods and possibly send one or two of them over the edge?

Now alfred, Sky News took the law into their own hands, didn't they.

Acted as vigilantes, didn't they ?

The Police weren't investigating Brenda.

Are you supporting vigilante action perchance ?

I.M.O. of course.

 

Offline Eleanor

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #459 on: October 15, 2014, 11:14:48 AM »

Doesn't everyone here have a one sided opinion?  Are there actually any fence sitters?

I think the question itself might just be on topic.  Not sure about the replies, so if there are any then please could you try to relate it to the topic.  Or perhaps we could have a new topic.

Offline Carew

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #460 on: October 15, 2014, 11:16:39 AM »
I'm not sure I follow.  Are you blaming McCann supporters for the actions of Sky News?   

Out of interest, do you think the media has no place in exposing potential criminal activity?  Should for example the Telegraph have kept quiet when it received information about the MPS expenses fiddling, for fear it might cost the MPs in question their reputation, livelihoods and possibly send one or two of them over the edge?

I`m not sure I follow.............Are you saying that McCann supporters disapprove of the actions of Sky News in confronting a selected target and were in no way involved with Sky News and the dossier?

Out of interest, do you think the media has a place in pre-empting a police investigation into alleged internet abuse apparently already under way?...........

The dossier/press unauthorised pre-emptive strike on targets issue is a tricky one for the McCann family and their supporters..............hence the bluster, emotive high-moral-ground posturing posts...........( and your distraction arguments.)



Offline Brietta

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #461 on: October 15, 2014, 11:19:11 AM »
I`m not sure I follow.............Are you saying that McCann supporters disapprove of the actions of Sky News in confronting a selected target and were in no way involved with Sky News and the dossier?

Out of interest, do you think the media has a place in pre-empting a police investigation into alleged internet abuse apparently already under way?...........

The dossier/press unauthorised pre-emptive strike on targets issue is a tricky one for the McCann family and their supporters..............hence the bluster, emotive high-moral-ground posturing posts...........( and your distraction arguments.)

There is a fine tradition of investigative reporting ... which is despised by many Governments ... and individuals who have a lot to hide.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #462 on: October 15, 2014, 11:25:06 AM »
I`m not sure I follow.............Are you saying that McCann supporters disapprove of the actions of Sky News in confronting a selected target and were in no way involved with Sky News and the dossier?

Out of interest, do you think the media has a place in pre-empting a police investigation into alleged internet abuse apparently already under way?...........

The dossier/press unauthorised pre-emptive strike on targets issue is a tricky one for the McCann family and their supporters..............hence the bluster, emotive high-moral-ground posturing posts...........( and your distraction arguments.)
How tiresome that you can only answer my questions with your own questions.  Let's start again.  You answer mine and I'll answer yours, OK?

Offline Angelo222

Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #463 on: October 15, 2014, 11:27:18 AM »
I'm not sure I follow.  Are you blaming McCann supporters for the actions of Sky News?   

Out of interest, do you think the media has no place in exposing potential criminal activity?  Should for example the Telegraph have kept quiet when it received information about the MPS expenses fiddling, for fear it might cost the MPs in question their reputation, livelihoods and possibly send one or two of them over the edge?

By no means can you blame all McCann supporters for the actions of Sky News but you can blame the individual(s) who sent the dossier to them when SY refused to do anything.

De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Investigation into McCann internet trolls launched by police
« Reply #464 on: October 15, 2014, 11:30:59 AM »
By no means can you blame all McCann supporters for the actions of Sky News but you can blame the individual(s) who sent the dossier to them when SY refused to do anything.
Blame them for what Sky News did?  Really?  So, Sky News is simply a tool at the disposal of McCann supporters is it?  It's morally wrong or even illegal to take evidence of wrong-doing to the media then in your view is it?