Are killers born to kill?

[John]

I think this question might have been asked previously but no matter.

Are killers born killers or does their upbringing have something to do with it?

[APRIL]

I think this question might have been asked previously but no matter.

Are killers born killers or does their upbringing have something to do with it?

John Hello. We're back to the old nature/nurture thing again, aren't we. IT IS SAID that we are genetically predisposed to certain conditions. Having an addictive personality is a sanitized blanket term used to describe numerous problems -in my experience, if one is cured, another develops- and where one family member is afflicted, there are likely to be others. Learned behaviours. The big question is, if the child of, let's say, known alcoholics/drug addicts is adopted into a substance free environment and given the sort of idyllic childhood that some of us dream about, will that child feel the need to resort to those things which had decimated the lives of its' biological parents? Perhaps not, BUT, it DOESN'T mean that it won't develop another addiction, equally dangerous but maybe not as potentially life threatening. The same rules apply where there is a background of criminality. If a child is surrounded by it during their formative years, this way of life becomes the norm and they will be much MORE likely to follow the same lifestyle overtly if they stay with their family, than if they are removed from it, BUT removing the child CAN give rise to problems of a psychological nature..................ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice

[Holly Goodhead]

June and Neville gave two unwanted and unloved children a fantastic home. They wanted for nothing  and indeed had an enviable childhood 'down on the farm'! Neither had to struggle to find a job and the roofs over their heads were a gift from their excellent and highly respected parents!

Holly I find your insinuations that somehow both J. and S. were somehow placed in a position of neglect and/or abuse with June and Neville is totally without foundation! Your tag line 'justice for S. and J.' is an unwarranted and unjustified insult to murder victims!

Just my opinion .... you personally are always respectful in putting your opinions but I do not agree with you on this subject.

If SC was "unwanted and unloved" prior to arriving at WHF I'm sad to say I don't think she fared any better "down on the farm" with her adoptive mother, June!

I don't wish to insinuate anything; I want to be quite clear that I believe SC suffered neglect as a result of June's severe depression circa 1959 which was brought on by her decision to adopt SC.  The depression was so severe that June required in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment.  At this point SC should have been removed from the Bambers' care permanently and they should have been prevented from adopting ever again.  The needs of children must come first, not the needs of infertile couples.  Otherwise we end up with tragedies like WHF: murder, mayhem and mental illness!

The above is not based on weird and wacky way out theories but decades of research resulting in papers such as the following by the National Scientific Council. 

"The National Scientific Council on the developing child is a multi-disciplinary, multi-university collaboration designed to bring the science of early childhood and early brain development to bear on public decision-making"

Maternal Depression Can Undermine the Development of Young Children

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp8/

The Science of Neglect: The Persistent Absence of Responsive Care Disrupts the Developing Brain

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp12/

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did. 

Recent case of an adoptive mother who became depressed and was unable to bond with her child

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1085555/Why-waiting-years-baby-I-gave-adopted-son-back.html

In the above article she states:

"I couldn't love him the way he deserved

'I looked after him perfectly well, but I was just going through the motions. At night I would tuck him up in his Thomas the Tank Engine pyjamas, saying to myself: "I am going to love you, I am going to love you."'

Matters came to a head just two weeks after Ben arrived, when a health visitor arrived for a routine check.

'She instantly knew something was wrong,' Yvette says. 'We started talking and I burst into floods of tears. It all came flooding out.'

Events moved rapidly: Yvette was referred the same day to a doctor, then a social worker, who said she should not be left alone with Ben.

'That was very difficult to hear,' she says. 'I knew they were only protecting the child, but I would never ever have hurt him.' Yvette was referred to The Priory, where a psychiatrist suggested that her inability to grieve over her infertility lay at the root of her feelings".

Note how Ben was swiftly removed by the authorities.  There's no doubt that this is what should have happened with poor SC.  I still think, at this late stage, a full inquiry should be launched by Social Services to establish why SC was not removed and why the Bambers were allowed to adopt JB.

I know JB claims he was happy in his adoptive family and that may well be true but the fact remains he was put at risk by the damage that was undoubtedly done to SC by June's depression/neglect.  Sadly that risk has resulted in him suffering one of the worst ever MoJ's imo!

[John]

My own view is that the ability to murder is in the genes and given the right circumstances, even a well heeled young man as Jeremy Bamber was in 1985 could kill without compassion or empathy.

[Tim Invictus]

My own view is that the ability to murder is in the genes and given the right circumstances, even a well heeled young man as Jeremy Bamber was in 1985 could kill without compassion or empathy.

I actually think the ability to kill is not in the genes .... as in there is a gene or two missing. The gene that gives us empathy and a conscience. Having said that, I think we all could and would kill in the right circumstances; who wouldn't go back and shoot Ian Huntley 5 minutes before Holly and Jessica walked past his door?

It takes a complete sociopath to slaughter children for money though. Those people are a rare breed; thankfully!

[Caroline]

I actually think the ability to kill is not in the genes .... as in there is a gene or two missing. The gene that gives us empathy and a conscience. Having said that, I think we all could and would kill in the right circumstances; who wouldn't go back and shoot Ian Huntley 5 minutes before Holly and Jessica walked past his door?

It takes a complete sociopath to slaughter children for money though. Those people are a rare breed; thankfully!

In Jeremy's case, I actually think that Holly is right, there was something wrong in this family and although I have no doubt that the Bambers tried to do their best, I suspect that June's illness impacted quite heavily on children who needed to feel like they belonged. I don't think either of them felt they belonged at all. And boarding school at only eight years old had to have had some impact on the way both Sheila and Jeremy viewed their parents and I think added to an already toxic situation.

[APRIL]

In Jeremy's case, I actually think that Holly is right, there was something wrong in this family and although I have no doubt that the Bambers tried to do their best, I suspect that June's illness impacted quite heavily on children who needed to feel like they belonged. I don't think either of them felt they belonged at all. And boarding school at only eight years old had to have had some impact on the way both Sheila and Jeremy viewed their parents and I think added to an already toxic situation.

Yes, I suspect that there would, for them both, have been a void. One which, at first, they may not have recognized. I imagine that they grew up in a family who put a high price on achievement and the accruing of wealth, but in which there was little warmth or empathy and perhaps, an even greater lack of physical contact, important, for healthy emotional development, to ALL children, but MUCH more so to adopted children. At a very basic level it's the start of a circle of feelings of worthlessness followed by a certain knowledge that if they aren't loved by the most important people in their lives -their parents- they must be unlovable. Most tragic is that those who haven't experienced love as children, often find it difficult to experience it as adults.

[Holly Goodhead]

My own view is that the ability to murder is in the genes and given the right circumstances, even a well heeled young man as Jeremy Bamber was in 1985 could kill without compassion or empathy.

I have posted a link previously to the following but this is a slightly different version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXcU8x_xK18

The presenter is Simon Baron-Cohen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen

He talks initially about groups that commit 'evil' acts eg Nazis and 9/11 terrorists with explanations for the groups.  And then talks about individuals eg Ted Bundy and provides explanations:

- Emotional neglect and absence of parental love in early childhood
- Carrier of a specific gene: Low Activity MAO-A gene
- Increased exposure to foetal testosterone
- Damage to empathy circuits in the brain eg amygdala and left ventromedial prefrontal cortex

There is overwhelming evidence that SC suffered neglect in early childhood.  JB should agree to undertake tests to ascertain the type of MAO-A gene he carries and a brain scan/functional magnetic resonance imaging to check out his empathy circuits.  Arguably a bit more scientific than a lie detector test!

[Holly Goodhead]

Ugh. I have to say this (ban me if you like, John, I wouldn't blame you).....

Lookout, you utterly disgust me. You rant on, day after day, your ignorance is staggering, and the fact that you are given free rein to display your bigotry and bile says EVERYTHING about the blue forum. June Bamber was a good, much-loved woman, unlike you, who will probably die alone and only be found when your cat has eaten most of you.

I agree June Bamber was a good and decent woman.  I think the idea that some posters eg Clappy think June was directly responsible for all or some of the murders is awful.  There is overwhelming evidence showing that this was impossible.  I don't understand why NGB can't politely point out in a post that the pathological evidence doesn't support this.  Instead he sits on the side lines and watches on and yet was happy to condone my ban over a reference to Clappy, knitting, cheese and the moon!  Says it all really 

I personally think June was unsuitable to adopt children but the responsibility for that lies with the authorities that approved June.  I am sure had June have had her own birth children she would have been an excellent mother.  It is sad this wasn't possible.

[Holly Goodhead]

My own view is that the ability to murder is in the genes and given the right circumstances, even a well heeled young man as Jeremy Bamber was in 1985 could kill without compassion or empathy.

There doesn't appear to be anything in JB's birth family ie mental illness/personality disorders that would support a genetic propensity towards the crimes he was convicted of.  On the contrary his birth parents and full birth siblings appear to be high functioning.  The same for SC albeit I am unable to comment on her paternal side.  Repeat for June ie no mental illness/personality disorders amongst Speakmans, Boutflours, and Eatons.  I ask myself what could cause an adoptive family to be so troubled:

Adoptive mother - June - serious mental illness - True
Adopted daughter - SC - serious mental illness - True
Adopted son - JB - mass murderer - True/False

 &%+((£

[ActualMat]

I agree June Bamber was a good and decent woman.  I think the idea that some posters eg Clappy think June was directly responsible for all or some of the murders is awful.  There is overwhelming evidence showing that this was impossible.  I don't understand why NGB can't politely point out in a post that the pathological evidence doesn't support this.  Instead he sits on the side lines and watches on and yet was happy to condone my ban over a reference to Clappy, knitting, cheese and the moon!  Says it all really 

I personally think June was unsuitable to adopt children but the responsibility for that lies with the authorities that approved June.  I am sure had June have had her own birth children she would have been an excellent mother.  It is sad this wasn't possible.

A post has been placed on the blue requesting a stop for people attacking the relatives on there - I hope it is listened to.

[John]

In Jeremy's case, I actually think that Holly is right, there was something wrong in this family and although I have no doubt that the Bambers tried to do their best, I suspect that June's illness impacted quite heavily on children who needed to feel like they belonged. I don't think either of them felt they belonged at all. And boarding school at only eight years old had to have had some impact on the way both Sheila and Jeremy viewed their parents and I think added to an already toxic situation.

That's an interesting point Caroline.  I have often wondered why people even bother to have children if they are going to despatch them off to boarding school as soon as they are out of diapers.  In the case of Jeremy and Sheila I believe they were sent off to boarding school after year 7 but why adopt at all if they are going to be sent off to boarding school? 

To an adopted child it is bad enough being rejected once but then being packed off to boarding school must raise the possibility of psychological damage in the case of some children.

[APRIL]

That's an interesting point Caroline.  I have often wondered why people even bother to have children if they are going to despatch them off to boarding school as soon as they are out of diapers.  In the case of Jeremy and Sheila I believe they were sent off to boarding school after year 7 but why adopt at all if they are going to be sent off to boarding school? 

To an adopted child it is bad enough being rejected once but then being packed off to boarding school must raise the possibility of psychological damage in the case of some children.

This is a frequently asked question. I have friends who ran away from their boarding schools on several occasions. So, too, did their children AND their grandchildren!!!! Would any of the EVER have considered doing something different when it comes to educating their children? It wouldn't cross their minds. MANY children dislike boarding school to start with. They get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do parents send adopted children to boarding school? Why not? It's nothing different from what they'd to with their biological children. What might happen in a family with both biological AND adopted children? I think it can be guaranteed that problems would occur later down the line if the children were educated differently, probably taking the form of the biological children saying the adopted children were given better treatment by being sent to day school and the adopted children complaining that they'd missed out on the camaraderie which boarding schools CAN provide. Please refer to Larkin

[Caroline]

That's an interesting point Caroline.  I have often wondered why people even bother to have children if they are going to despatch them off to boarding school as soon as they are out of diapers.  In the case of Jeremy and Sheila I believe they were sent off to boarding school after year 7 but why adopt at all if they are going to be sent off to boarding school? 

To an adopted child it is bad enough being rejected once but then being packed off to boarding school must raise the possibility of psychological damage in the case of some children.

Exactly John, both had problems at school but it must also have impacted on the interpersonal relationships of family life and isn't really a situation in which close bonds would/could develop.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't think there's any real evidence that SC or JB presented with any behavioural problems at school.  Both appear to have underachieved academically compared with their birth families.

I believe Roger Wilkes interviewed JB's headmaster at Greshams, Logie Bruce Lockhart, and there was nothing remarkable about JB either negatively or positively.  It appears his greatest misdemeanour was bunking off to attend a Suzi Quattro concert.  I believe this was all checked out by EP too.

I understand SC left her first boarding school in Sussex by mutual consent.  She was apparently a bit of a day-dreamer (can be a feature of adoption/attachment disorder/dissociation)  and it was felt not progressing as expected.  She was expelled from her boarding school in Norfolk but I understand this was along with other girls on the last day of term over high jinks.

I think if a child forms a secure attachment with his/her primary caregiver during the crucial first 2/3 years of life then boarding school is unlikely to have an adverse effect whether or not the child was adopted.  Kate Adie was adopted at or around birth and attended boarding school and it doesn't appear to have affected her adversely.

I will always maintain that the rot set in with SC as a result of June's depression circa 1959.  When a primary caregiver is unresponsive to a baby's needs this creates terrifying experiences (evolutionary basis for survival).  Pre-verbal experiences are processed by the amygdala and stored in implicit memory.  Amygdala plays a significant role in aggression and violence. 

http://www.our-emotional-health.com/articles/ChildRemembers2.pdf