The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?

[pegasus]

Mat looked into the kids bedroom a mere 30 minutes before Kate and he never reported open curtains and an open shutter.  So what changed?

During the 2130 check, the pressure in the lounge diner kitchen hall was normal atmospheric pressure, with a constant through draught coming in window and out kitchen vent. Same during the first part of the 2200 check. But there is a big change of scenario when the 2200 checker moves the door to almost closed, because this enables the through draught to slam the door shut. Now suddenly the pressure in lounge diner kitchen hall drops from normal to negative because no air can enter apartment to replace air being sucked strongly up vent. And then when the 2200 checker reopens the bedroom door, there is a single extra strong blast of air in through the window to bring the negative pressure in lounge etc back up to normal. It was that one off blast of air which blew the curtains in.   So that explains the difference between the 2130 check and the 2200 check.

[pegasus]

Found this illustration ...

Thanks Brietta, yes venturi effect, and this was increased by 'chimney effect' of that vent reaching high above the 2nd floor, especially after sunset.
Finding that vent indicates even more strongly that KM is telling the exact truth about her check.

[sadie]

Thanks Brietta, yes venturi effect, and this was increased by 'chimney effect' of that vent reaching high above the 2nd floor, especially after sunset.
Finding that vent indicates even more strongly that KM is telling the exact truth about her check.

And altho I cannot find it now, I remember that the winds were strengthening, so perhaps the conditions at 10 pm were noticeably rougher than at 9.30pm. 

The conditions that I found were for 10 pm IIRC. 

[pegasus]

And altho I cannot find it now, I remember that the winds were strengthening, so perhaps the conditions at 10 pm were noticeably rougher than at 9.30pm. 

The conditions that I found were for 10 pm IIRC. 

Even if the wind was completely constant throughout the 2130 check and the 2200 check, the difference between the observations during those two checks is easily explained:
The 22.00 checker moved the open door to the almost closed position and that is the exact reason why it slammed.
The 22.00 checker then moved the door from a 100% closed position, to open position, and that is the exact reason the curtains blew in.
BTW if those two human actions to the door had been done in the 21.30 check instead, the same slam and the same curtain blow in would have happened then.
IMO the window and shutter were manually opened from outside , and just one or two seconds later the bedroom door was manually pulled open from inside, all this is before the 21.30 check.

[pegasus]

Mr Amaral IMO got many things wrong, and disbelieving the truthful discovery description is one example, however one thing he does get right IMO is going to another room on foot pre-21.30.
It would after all explain the opened door would it not?

[Wonderfulspam]

The simpler explanation is that the bedroom door didn't move, & neither did the curtains.

[pathfinder73]

Even if the wind was completely constant throughout the 2130 check and the 2200 check, the difference between the observations during those two checks is easily explained:
The 22.00 checker moved the open door to the almost closed position and that is the exact reason why it slammed.
The 22.00 checker then moved the door from a 100% closed position, to open position, and that is the exact reason the curtains blew in.
BTW if those two human actions to the door had been done in the 21.30 check instead, the same slam and the same curtain blow in would have happened then.
IMO the window and shutter were manually opened from outside , and just one or two seconds later the bedroom door was manually pulled open from inside, all this is before the 21.30 check.

Somebody was at the window for how long?  It wasn't open at 9:30 or they'd be a draught and the curtains would be blowing. They walked through the car park to do their checks so somebody's gonna be at the window pulling cords where they could see. I don't think so. Nobody went through the window so it's an anomaly. It was opened from the inside.

At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. (KM)

By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.

The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.  (MO)

[Alice Purjorick]

Gosh all I did was mention venturi effect and the faithful are on it like chickens on a June bug.
OK then lets have some sums to back up the speculation. It is not much more than "A" level physics  &%+((£
Oh yes I tried that one before and had no takers maybe someone will have a go now?

[pegasus]

Why the door slammed as soon as it was placed in the slightly ajar position
Photo
The blue lines show the air currents
There is about 6 metres of chimney sucking air up out of that hood

[Alice Purjorick]

Why the door slammed as soon as it was placed in the slightly ajar position
Photo
The blue lines show the air currents
There is about 6 metres of chimney sucking air up out of that hood

Very interesting!
Back to my point made about a week ago. Until someone calculates the force required to make the curtains "whoosh" you ain't going nowhere.

[pegasus]

See bedroom net curtain blowing in in Mr Amaral's video.

Also at least the net curtain blows in when the window is opened by Mr Rebelo in this photo.
Do we have video of this day?

[sadie]

Why the door slammed as soon as it was placed in the slightly ajar position
Photo
The blue lines show the air currents
There is about 6 metres of chimney sucking air up out of that hood

And that would also account for the whooshing curtains, I think?


The bedroom door that was found slightly more ajar earlier on cannot be accounted for by the venturi effect.  Opened once could be accounted for by Madeleine going to the loo.  But it is not likely that the ajar door could be accounted for more than once by Madeleine going to the loo.


Does this mean that an abductor was, or had been already, in the apartment, when Matt checked inside?

If it means an abductor had already been in the apartment, that ties up nicely with Jane Tanners sighting.

And if Madeleine had not been to the loo, then maybe he had been in before Gerry arrived?  But could it be that his watcher on the balcony across Rua Dr Francisco GM [block 6 balcony] had warned him that Gerry was coming and he had quietly left via the front door before Gerry came in, leaving the bedroom door slightly more ajar

That would account for the slightly more open bedroom door when Gerry arrived.



Only thoughts, but they are possibilities.

[pegasus]

And that would also account for the whooshing curtains, I think?


The bedroom door that was found slightly more ajar earlier on cannot be accounted for by the venturi effect.  Once it could be accounted for by Madeleine going to the loo.  But it is not likely that the ajar door could be accounted for more than once by Madeleine going to the loo.


Does this mean that an abductor was, or had been already, in the apartment, when Matt checked inside?

If it means an abductor had already been in the apartment, that ties upm with Jane Tanners sighting.

And if Madeleine had not been to the loo, then maybe he had been in before Gerry arrived?  But could it be that his watcher on the balcony across Rua Dr Francisco GM [block 6 balcony] had warned him that Gerry was coming and he had quietly left via the front door before Gerry came in, leaving the bedroom door slightly more ajar

That would account for the slightly more open bedroom door when Gerry arrived.



Only thoughts, but they are possibilities.

The bedroom door was opened wider by the child pulling it open to go to another room.
If that happened twice, the first time would be to go to the bathroom, which means the second time was to go not to the bathroom but to a different room.

[Brietta]

The bedroom door was opened wider by the child pulling it open to go to another room.
If that happened twice, the first time would be to go to the bathroom, which means the second time was to go not to the bathroom but to a different room.

The work you have carried out in assessing that the chimney hood may very well be the reason for the slamming of the bedroom door and described ‘whooshing’ of the bedroom curtains is I think second to none.

Kudos.
I think you are like a dog with a bone until you hit on a satisfactory solution to a problem. 

But I think you are wrong when you think that Madeleine was responsible for the opened door while running from an intruder. 

I think Sadie is right when she links the situation with Jane Tanner’s sighting of the man with a child and have no doubt at all that an intruder was responsible.

I think the window was opened as a contingency plan when the original was interrupted by the conversation in the street and the child passed through to an accomplice; I think the person who did that exited the bedroom after ensuring there were no obvious signs of his/her presence and exited via the front door and made good an escape.  Perhaps it was hoped Madeleine would not be missed until much later or even the morning to give them more time to get further away, but in the event their plan was successful.

I think it possible Dr McCann’s conversation with Jez prevented a plan to exit via the patio door and into a vehicle timed to pick up at the foot of the stairs; I think it possible that the escape vehicle was in the car park opposite the tapas restaurant and Madeleine was carried there by the man seen, or that there was a rendezvous when that vehicle drove round to pick-up when the coast was clear. 

I think Madeleine was passive in all of this and may even have already been drugged when her father looked in on her.

[pegasus]

@Brietta yes KM tells the complete truth, the door slammed and the curtains blew, therefore there was an exit for that strong draught, we know the lounge balcony door was shut, therefore it was the kitchen vent chimney.