Claims that Nevill phoned police while Sheila went on rampage.

[Myster]

So Sheila manages to get hold of the rifle from the settle in the back hall, loads the magazine then sneaks past her father assuming he's already standing/seated in the kitchen?, up to the bedroom, and pumps several bullets into her mother. Meanwhile, Nevill hears gunshots, doesn't dash upstairs as any normal father would do, but stalls wasting valuable seconds to phone his son (who never got on with her) for help, then runs upstairs to be confronted with Sheila and does nothing to calm her down or overpower her. The same father who she idolised and would spend hours talking to on the phone listening to her problems. Yep Holly, that sure makes sense!

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[Holly Goodhead]

So Sheila manages to get hold of the rifle from the settle in the back hall, loads the magazine then sneaks past her father assuming he's already standing/seated in the kitchen?, up to the bedroom, and pumps several bullets into her mother. Meanwhile, Nevill hears gunshots, doesn't dash upstairs as any normal father would do, but stalls wasting valuable seconds to phone his son (who never got on with her) for help, then runs upstairs to be confronted with Sheila and does nothing to calm her down or overpower her. The same father who she idolised and would spend hours talking to on the phone listening to her problems. Yep Holly, that sure makes sense!

No, no, no!  There was no sneaking past NB.  NB told JB over the phone SC had the gun and was going crazy/berserk.  At this point NB had no idea whether or not the .22 was loaded let alone whether or not SC would fire a shot.  NB had a very low opinion of the local police and family privacy was paramount hence he called JB.  Much the same way Freddie called NB when SC became  disturbed on a previous occasion.  As NB was on the phone to JB he heard gunshots ring out dropped the phone and run to the bedroom, where he was shot 4 times before retreating to the kitchen where he collapsed in the chair and was easily overpowered

[Myster]

No, no, no!  There was no sneaking past NB.  NB told JB over the phone SC had the gun and was going crazy/berserk.  At this point NB had no idea whether or not the .22 was loaded let alone whether or not SC would fire a shot.  NB had a very low opinion of the local police and family privacy was paramount hence he called JB.  Much the same way Freddie called NB when SC became  disturbed on a previous occasion.  As NB was on the phone to JB he heard gunshots ring out dropped the phone and run to the bedroom, where he was shot 4 times before retreating to the kitchen where he collapsed in the chair and was easily overpowered

Yes, yes, yes!  The first reaction of any father whose daughter was going berserk with his firearm would be to disarm her asap, especially if he knew that she had never used it before. This was a newish Anschutz 525, relatively low-powered for dispatching a human with just a couple of bullets unless accurately directed at the heart or brain. What would stop him taking a chance to disarm Sheila before she had a chance to fire off any misplaced or wayward shots at him? Absolutely nothing, imo. He was very familiar with firearms and their properties, bigger and stronger, no doubt capable of completely flattening Sheila if necessary!  The haloperidol made sure she was dozy and slow enough to be overpowered.

And I can't accept that just because it was reported that Nevill had a low opinion of the local plod he had to call Jeremy instead of 999 in such a dire life or death situation. When the police were taking witness statements at the cottage a few hours after the murders, wasn't it Jeremy who according to Colin Caffell, said that it sounded as if his father had already been injured, i.e. shot in the mouth and therefore rendered incapable of speaking clearly, if at all. (see Vanezis)

What I do find odd though is how on earth he came to be straddled and precariously balanced across that chair back with his pyjama pants wrapped around his ankles, and head in the coal scuttle.  Very strange position to be in, as if he was deliberately lifted there by the killer... impossible for a lightweight like Sheila to have done so, and without that person getting blood on their clothing at the same time, imo.

[adam]

No, no, no!  There was no sneaking past NB.  NB told JB over the phone SC had the gun and was going crazy/berserk.  At this point NB had no idea whether or not the .22 was loaded let alone whether or not SC would fire a shot.  NB had a very low opinion of the local police and family privacy was paramount hence he called JB.  Much the same way Freddie called NB when SC became  disturbed on a previous occasion.  As NB was on the phone to JB he heard gunshots ring out dropped the phone and run to the bedroom, where he was shot 4 times before retreating to the kitchen where he collapsed in the chair and was easily overpowered

If there was a chance the rifle was not loaded, wouldn't that make it more likely Neville would try to disarm her ?

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes, yes, yes!  The first reaction of any father whose daughter was going berserk with his firearm would be to disarm her asap, especially if he knew that she had never used it before. This was a newish Anschutz 525, relatively low-powered for dispatching a human with just a couple of bullets unless accurately directed at the heart or brain. What would stop him taking a chance to disarm Sheila before she had a chance to fire off any misplaced or wayward shots at him? Absolutely nothing, imo. He was very familiar with firearms and their properties, bigger and stronger, no doubt capable of completely flattening Sheila if necessary!  The haloperidol made sure she was dozy and slow enough to be overpowered.

And I can't accept that just because it was reported that Nevill had a low opinion of the local plod he had to call Jeremy instead of 999 in such a dire life or death situation. When the police were taking witness statements at the cottage a few hours after the murders, wasn't it Jeremy who according to Colin Caffell, said that it sounded as if his father had already been injured, i.e. shot in the mouth and therefore rendered incapable of speaking clearly, if at all. (see Vanezis)

What I do find odd though is how on earth he came to be straddled and precariously balanced across that chair back with his pyjama pants wrapped around his ankles, and head in the coal scuttle.  Very strange position to be in, as if he was deliberately lifted there by the killer... impossible for a lightweight like Sheila to have done so, and without that person getting blood on their clothing at the same time, imo.

As I said imo the reason NB didn't call the police was two-fold: low regard for local police and family privacy which was very important to the Bambers.  Yes NB could have attempted to have overpowered SC and take a calculated gamble at a wayward shot ricocheting and ultimately hitting NB, albeit non-life threatening.  Or receiving a non-life threatening shot direct.  However if he was shot non-fatally in any scuffle he would need to involve the authorities in a) getting the wound treated b) would SC keep it in-house c) he would know that he could not brush this under the carpet and let SC have any unsupervised contact with the twins etc, etc.  NB would be mindful of shooting accidents having accidentally blinded June's fathers, Leslie Speakman, in one eye.  NB fired a shot which hit a tree, ricocheted and hit Leslie Speakman in the eye blinding him.

I don't recall JB saying anything in his WS's to the effect that NB had been shot at the time of making the said call?

Whether SC or JB why would either pull down NB's pyjamas etc and stage his body?  Think it was just the way poor NB fell.  If JB and he was motivated by greed why would he waste time pulling down NB's pyjamas and staging his body in the kitchen and yet replace a bloody, paint covered silencer with a hair attached in the gun cupboard?

Anyway I am sure all will be revealed shortly when PH releases his book providing the definitive account which  will end all speculation once and for all 

[Myster]

As I said imo the reason NB didn't call the police was two-fold: low regard for local police and family privacy which was very important to the Bambers.  Yes NB could have attempted to have overpowered SC and take a calculated gamble at a wayward shot ricocheting and ultimately hitting NB, albeit non-life threatening.  Or receiving a non-life threatening shot direct.  However if he was shot non-fatally in any scuffle he would need to involve the authorities in a) getting the wound treated b) would SC keep it in-house c) he would know that he could not brush this under the carpet and let SC have any unsupervised contact with the twins etc, etc.  NB would be mindful of shooting accidents having accidentally blinded June's fathers, Leslie Speakman, in one eye.  NB fired a shot which hit a tree, ricocheted and hit Leslie Speakman in the eye blinding him.

I don't recall JB saying anything in his WS's to the effect that NB had been shot at the time of making the said call?

Whether SC or JB why would either pull down NB's pyjamas etc and stage his body?  Think it was just the way poor NB fell.  If JB and he was motivated by greed why would he waste time pulling down NB's pyjamas and staging his body in the kitchen and yet replace a bloody, paint covered silencer with a hair attached in the gun cupboard?
Anyway I am sure all will be revealed shortly when PH releases his book providing the definitive account which  will end all speculation once and for all

I'm not going to repeat what I've already said!

But you'll have read CC's account in his "In Search Of...." as to what JB said to the police, AE and himself at the cottage.  So you either believe CC or you don't... simple.

I didn't say anything about having his pyjama pants deliberately pulled down, because I've always thought they fell down on their own during the struggle which you say never took place, or even as he was being positioned astride the chair by someone.  Having worn similar M&S pants with an elasticated waist, they do tend to become loose after being hot-washed a few times and with use. If the pants were cotton-belted, that could also have become untied.
 
Try balancing on a spindle-backed edge of a chair while leaning forward and without kneeling to find out how difficult it is to stop yourself falling over.... and that while alive.

I blinkin' well hope so, with a guilty opinion too then we could all leave.
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[Holly Goodhead]

I'm not going to repeat what I've already said!

But you'll have read CC's account in his "In Search Of...." as to what JB said to the police, AE and himself at the cottage.  So you either believe CC or you don't... simple.

I didn't say anything about having his pyjama pants deliberately pulled down, because I've always thought they fell down on their own during the struggle which you say never took place, or even as he was being positioned astride the chair by someone.  Having worn similar M&S pants with an elasticated waist, they do tend to become loose after being hot-washed a few times and with use. If the pants were cotton-belted, that could also have become untied.
 
Try balancing on a spindle-backed edge of a chair while leaning forward and without kneeling to find out how difficult it is to stop yourself falling over.... and that while alive.

I blinkin' well hope so, with a guilty opinion too then we could all leave.
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I don't think CC lied at any stage but as the judge in the OP trial said:

Judge Thokozile Masipa says the testimony of the neighbours were “correctly in my view” criticised by the defence for being unreliable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/11089276/Oscar-Pistorius-verdict-judge-rules-witnesses-testimony-unreliable.html

CC wrote his book several years after the murders and could easily be mistaken in his recollection.

I thought NB was found seated on his favourite kitchen chair with his head forward resting on the coal scuttle.  I think he sought solace in his favourite chair and if he self-positioned in the normal seated position I don't believe he would topple forward

 

[Myster]

Nevill wasn't seated... just look at the colour photo and the precarious position he was left in, straddled across the sharp edge of a chair back!

[puglove]

Nevill wasn't seated... just look at the colour photo and the precarious position he was left in, straddled across the sharp edge of a chair back!

Ralph's body was in that strange, precarious position because he was knocked from his chair by the police when they entered the kitchen. At least 2 officers would have picked him up, placed him on the overturned chair, and to manage the resulting blood flow from his (disturbed) head wounds, put the scuttle under his head and placed the clothes and cushions on the floor. Ralph could only be in that position due to rigor mortis, which was exacerbated by his age, slim build, the heat from the Aga and the exertion of struggling with Bamber just before he received the final shots to his head.

[John]

The following two photos were taken of Nevill Bamber shortly after police entered the farmhouse.  The colour photo is too graphic to post so has the body silhouetted out.

Notice how a cushion and other fabric have been placed by police to stem the spread of blood.

[Myster]

Ralph's body was in that strange, precarious position because he was knocked from his chair by the police when they entered the kitchen. At least 2 officers would have picked him up, placed him on the overturned chair, and to manage the resulting blood flow from his (disturbed) head wounds, put the scuttle under his head and placed the clothes and cushions on the floor. Ralph could only be in that position due to rigor mortis, which was exacerbated by his age, slim build, the heat from the Aga and the exertion of struggling with Bamber just before he received the final shots to his head.

So "Dead Bodies Do Move" after all!   Is that table still wonky and in need of levelling?

By the time the raid team broke in, Nevill's heart was well and truly stopped and if the police did move him, there shouldn't have been so much blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor. All that blood could only have come from the four final shots to his head (fired by JB) while it was in the scuttle and the heart was still pumping... just my opinion!

Good to see you posting again! 

[puglove]

The following two photos were taken of Nevill Bamber shortly after police entered the farmhouse.  The colour photo is too graphic to post so has the body silhouetted out.

Notice how a cushion and other fabric have been placed by police to stem the spread of blood.

And these sad images also underline why Ralph's body was originally presumed to be female. Before his body was knocked over, he was slumped in his chair with his long hair flopped forward. THAT was what was seen from the window. On entry, presumed female body found to be male body. Hence the confused log. We all know that EP were massively out of their depth and weren't the brightest bulbs on the tree.

They got there in the end, though.

[puglove]

So "Dead Bodies Do Move" after all!   Is that table still wonky and in need of levelling?

By the time the raid team broke in, Nevill's heart was well and truly stopped and if the police did move him, there shouldn't have been so much blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor. All that blood could only have come from the four final shots to his head (fired by JB) while it was in the scuttle and the heart was still pumping... just my opinion!

Good to see you posting again! 

Re: the blood flow - have a squiz at the Rettendon Murders - they had been dead for hours, but bled out like b....r on the slabs.

[Andrea]

Those pictures are horrific.

[Myster]

CC wrote his book several years after the murders and could easily be mistaken in his recollection.

I thought NB was found seated on his favourite kitchen chair with his head forward resting on the coal scuttle.  I think he sought solace in his favourite chair and if he self-positioned in the normal seated position I don't believe he would topple forward
 

I don't think Colin Caffell was mistaken.  DC Mick Clark and Ann Eaton would also have heard what JB said...



If NB had already been shot in the mouth, tongue and larynx, then according to Dr Vanezis he would have been incapable of coherent speech. How does this square with JB's assertion that NB told him quite clearly that Sheila had gone berserk and got hold of a gun?