Author Topic: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.  (Read 36541 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2015, 04:00:51 PM »
Not so... there's a thin metal deflector plate just behind of the ejection port of an Anschutz 525 which forces the shell forward and to the right, whereas there wasn't any on that handgun in your link. Which is why they flew all over the place; to the side, backwards and forwards. So I think the hatched area in one of the WHF plans showing where the bullets were most likely fired from is a reasonable assumption.


Thanks Myster.  I see the little deflector plate might force the spent cartridge along a certain path.  I havent read the PDF  in detail.  It might relate to non-comparable firearms.  There are some pie charts and scattergrams at the back showing distribution of cartridges using various weapons (I think). 

If you're right about the deflector plate, and on the surface it seems you are,  that's potentially good as it will assist any SoC reconstruction.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2015, 04:06:18 PM »
Thanks Myster.  I see the little deflector plate might force the spent cartridge along a certain path.  I havent read the PDF  in detail.  It might relate to non-comparable firearms.  There are some pie charts and scattergrams at the back showing distribution of cartridges using various weapons (I think). 

If you're right about the deflector plate, and on the surface it seems you are,  that's potentially good as it will assist any SoC reconstruction.

I hope not!  ?8)@)-)
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2015, 01:17:10 AM »
Yes, if they were both lying in bed I would expect a rational murderer to kick off with shooting Nevill in the head, then June, then Nevill again - but there are no bullet casings in the western half of the room.  Which is a bit surprising, given the ones on/in/under the bed are associated with June.  Coupled with the fact there is none of Nevil's blood in the room I find it hard to believe he was in it.

We can look at how the casings fell for the Twins, who weren't moving, to see that they tend to fall forwards and slightly right.  On that basis I can't see  how DRH14 can have been fired from anywhere other than someone advancing along the corridor from the twin's room, or from within the doorway of the box room facing north back to that corridor:  neither could be as a result of shooting Sheila.

I'm trying to get my head around there being 14 shots upstairs for June and Nevill on one diagram, and 11 on the other:  does anyone know the provenance of these 2 diagrams?  The one with sketches of the bodies looks more authentic, but appears to obfuscate matters by counting 2 halves of one casing -DRH7 - twice under the list of "10 Cartridge Cases (to Ralph and June) 'First' Episode", yet not including DRH5, DRH9 or DRH35 in that list, even whilst stating they are clearly associated with June.

The numbers don't add up, and the location of the casings is strange:  it seems possible to me there could have been more shots fired but they didn't find all the casings.

Shooting at Nevill as he was getting out of bed would result in the the shell casings landing on June's side of the bed they are ejected to the right.  When she got up she may have knocked some of the casings off the bed. They also could have ricocheted off the bed. Shooting at June caused the shells to be in the corner or towards the door. It all depends on the exact angle of the shooter.   It is quite possible based on the shell distribution for Nevill to have been shot seated on his side of the bed or as he was rising fro his side of the bed.  Furthermore the bullet that grazed his was found in the bedroom along with the 4 shells associated with the 4 shots he suffered in the bedroom.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2015, 01:37:18 AM »
Just as a post-script:  if Nevill phoning Bamber was integral to the plan so Nevill had to be up and about, and people who believe Bamber is guilty reckon he hid the phone downstairs necessitating Nevill to rush down to the kitchen to get to the phone, all Bamber would have needed to do was plug the bedroom phone back in by the bed and put the 'hidden' phone into the kitchen socket after everyone was dead.  As he's busy staging Sheila's body with a gun with her fingerprint on it, and he has allegedly been planning this for months, I'd have thought he would have staged Nevill's body with a telephone next to it, off the hook, gripped by his bloodied hand if it was part of his alibi.

This is one of the main problems I have with this:  if Bamber cold bloodedly planned this for weeks - and the prosecution does rely on lots of pre-planning with a bicycle, wetsuit, gloves, phones etc - he would unequivocally have shot his father first.  He used the gun and was a good shot:  he will have known it would not necessarily kill his father, his greatest adversary.  And if his alibi hung on his father phoning him, he would have left his father melodramatically clutching a phone.

Like all Jeremy supporters you simply make up what you choose to believe and say the hell with the facts and evidence.  You decided he would shoot his father first no matter what even though that would give away for sure he lied about receiving a call from his father.  He told Julie prior to the murders he planned to say he received a distress call.  That means it was not some ad hoc thing he actually planned it out. 

It doesn't matter if there is a phone in the bedroom or not if Nevill was killed in bed then he couldn't make a distress call to Jeremy.  People who died in their sleep don't make distress calls.  It would not be credible that his father got back into bed after calling Jeremy would it?  He needed to shoot his father as he was sitting on the bed or rising from it in order to stick a phone near him and people to believe his father called.

The 4 shots fired at his father failed to immobilize him. The gun was empty and Jeremy needed more ammo.  In all likelihood he ran to the kitchen with Nevill chasing him so that Nevill could try to prevent him from reloading and caught up with him in the kitchen.  It seems less likely that Nevill managed to fight his way past him and exited to run to the kitchen to get a shotgun or other weapon.

They had the struggle in the kitchen and Nevill was knocked out hen Jeremy was able to reload and fired 4 more shots killing his father.  Why would he stick the bedroom phone back?  He took that phone away so that they could not summon help before he killed them.  If they heard him entering and summoned help he would be screwed.

Since Nevill made it downstairs he decided to present to take the kitchen phone off the hook and gave the suggestion that Nevill was attacked while he was on the phone with Jeremy thus disconnecting the call and then he fought his killer before being shot dead. DCI Jones fell for this nonsense but the shell casings in the bedroom as well as the bullet that grazed Nevill being found there tell us the attach started in the master bedroom.  The killer fired the full magazine into June and Nevill in the bedroom and the gun was empty and the fight happened to try to prevent Jeremy from reloading. 

Why do you think the 4 shots int he bedroom was to Nevill's left profile?  Either he was sitting on the bed or getting up hence his left profile was facing the shooter. Indeed the trajectory of the shot to his shoulder and face were down trajectories.  The only way for that to be the case would be if Nevill was not upright fully when shot in these locations or the killer was standing on a chair or stool which is not at all likely.   

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2015, 08:25:08 PM »
Bamber's aim was to kill everyone in their beds, except Sheila who had to be in thick of the action. But getting her to move to a suitable position would not be hard.

Once everyone was dead, he could just move Neville or even June a little bit, plug the bedroom in and take it off the hook. Then claim the call was made from the main bedroom.

He was seconds away from being successful. Neville waking and moving.  Resulting in four horrific but not fatal shots to him.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2015, 03:31:21 PM »
Bamber's aim was to kill everyone in their beds, except Sheila who had to be in thick of the action. But getting her to move to a suitable position would not be hard.

Once everyone was dead, he could just move Neville or even June a little bit, plug the bedroom in and take it off the hook. Then claim the call was made from the main bedroom.

He was seconds away from being successful. Neville waking and moving.  Resulting in four horrific but not fatal shots to him.

Just like they could tell June was shot in bed they would know Nevill had been shot in bed had he been shot in his sleep.  Moving bodies doesn't help change things.  He planned to say Nevill phoned him and  thus didn't try to kill Nevill in his sleep.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2015, 05:38:36 PM »
Just like they could tell June was shot in bed they would know Nevill had been shot in bed had he been shot in his sleep.  Moving bodies doesn't help change things.  He planned to say Nevill phoned him and  thus didn't try to kill Nevill in his sleep.

Neville or June only needed to be a few feet from the bed. Bamber could then claim they had been up all night.

What was Bamber's plan with Neville ? He shot him four times around the head area in the main bedroom, so must have been going for the kill.

Having Neville out of bed, injured of not was too risky.

It would have been better to attempt to kill Neville first, then try to control where June fell. But June was shot multiple times with her head on the pillow.

Bamber was going after a double kill.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2015, 01:49:47 PM »
Like all Jeremy supporters you simply make up what you choose to believe and say the hell with the facts and evidence.  You decided he would shoot his father first no matter what even though that would give away for sure he lied about receiving a call from his father.  He told Julie prior to the murders he planned to say he received a distress call.  That means it was not some ad hoc thing he actually planned it out. 

It doesn't matter if there is a phone in the bedroom or not if Nevill was killed in bed then he couldn't make a distress call to Jeremy.  People who died in their sleep don't make distress calls.  It would not be credible that his father got back into bed after calling Jeremy would it?  He needed to shoot his father as he was sitting on the bed or rising from it in order to stick a phone near him and people to believe his father called.

The 4 shots fired at his father failed to immobilize him. The gun was empty and Jeremy needed more ammo.  In all likelihood he ran to the kitchen with Nevill chasing him so that Nevill could try to prevent him from reloading and caught up with him in the kitchen.  It seems less likely that Nevill managed to fight his way past him and exited to run to the kitchen to get a shotgun or other weapon.

They had the struggle in the kitchen and Nevill was knocked out hen Jeremy was able to reload and fired 4 more shots killing his father.  Why would he stick the bedroom phone back?  He took that phone away so that they could not summon help before he killed them.  If they heard him entering and summoned help he would be screwed.

Since Nevill made it downstairs he decided to present to take the kitchen phone off the hook and gave the suggestion that Nevill was attacked while he was on the phone with Jeremy thus disconnecting the call and then he fought his killer before being shot dead. DCI Jones fell for this nonsense but the shell casings in the bedroom as well as the bullet that grazed Nevill being found there tell us the attach started in the master bedroom.  The killer fired the full magazine into June and Nevill in the bedroom and the gun was empty and the fight happened to try to prevent Jeremy from reloading. 

Why do you think the 4 shots int he bedroom was to Nevill's left profile?  Either he was sitting on the bed or getting up hence his left profile was facing the shooter. Indeed the trajectory of the shot to his shoulder and face were down trajectories.  The only way for that to be the case would be if Nevill was not upright fully when shot in these locations or the killer was standing on a chair or stool which is not at all likely.   

Scipio I believe two casings were found in the landing area? 

The trajectory of the facial shots and shot to shoulder were downwards (can't see where the pathologist makes ref to the trajectory of the shot to elbow?  I will need to read again carefully).  NB was taller than SC and JB but the downward trajectory might be accounted for if the perp was just outside the doorway of the main bedroom and NB below the 2 steps on the landing which immediately precede the doorway to the main bedroom?

A simple response as to why I might be right, wrong or nothing can be determined will suffice thank you. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Admin

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2015, 02:01:50 PM »
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2015, 02:02:03 PM »
Scipio I believe two casings were found in the landing area? 

The trajectory of the facial shots and shot to shoulder were downwards (can't see where the pathologist makes ref to the trajectory of the shot to elbow?  I will need to read again carefully).  NB was taller than SC and JB but the downward trajectory might be accounted for if the perp was just outside the doorway of the main bedroom and NB below the 2 steps on the landing which immediately precede the doorway to the main bedroom?

A simple response as to why I might be right, wrong or nothing can be determined will suffice thank you. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg261237#msg261237

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2015, 05:31:32 AM »
Scipio I believe two casings were found in the landing area? 

The trajectory of the facial shots and shot to shoulder were downwards (can't see where the pathologist makes ref to the trajectory of the shot to elbow?  I will need to read again carefully).  NB was taller than SC and JB but the downward trajectory might be accounted for if the perp was just outside the doorway of the main bedroom and NB below the 2 steps on the landing which immediately precede the doorway to the main bedroom?

A simple response as to why I might be right, wrong or nothing can be determined will suffice thank you. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947

There was 1 casing in the hallway only.  It was against the wall. Quite clearly this is the casing that was missing from the kitchen.  There is no natural way for it to get there.  Someone tracked it upstairs and kicked it off their shoe resulting in it lodging against the wall.

Since Nevill was shot 4 times with the killer facing his left profile this precludes the killer shooting at Nevill's back or shooting Neville while he was facing his killer.  The killer was facing his left profile.  Quite obviously the killer could not shoot at his left profile in the hallway or on the stairs.  Moreover, since the shell exits forward and right it would have shot down the stairs if he was shot while on the stairs or near it.

There were 13 casings in the bedroom- 4 associated with shots to Nevill, 7 associated with shots to June and 2 to Sheila. In addition there were the bullet fragments associated with June's exit wounds and a fragment from the bullet that grazed Nevill.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2015, 08:30:29 AM »
Largest fragment from each bullet

Nevill's wounds:

1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body
2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1
3) PV/3 top of skull
4) PV/4 top of skull
5) PV/10 (lip)         
6) PV/11 (jaw)
7)PV/2  (Shoulder)
8)DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)

Wounds 1-4 were received in the kitchen, wounds 5-8 in the master bedroom. DRH/5 was recovered in the master bedroom.

In the bedroom Nevill was neither facing his killer head on nor had his back to the killer.  He had his left profile to the killer.

This arm was in the air when the graze shot occurred. The shot grazed underneath his upper arm then grazed his chest.  he bullet went from left to right across his body. The only way for this to happen is his arm to be raised when it is grazed so that the portion hit was adjacent to his chest so that the bullet could continue across his body.  The fragment associated with this shot was DRH/5

Shots 6 and 7 were delivered while Nevill was not fully upright. He was either sitting or in the process of rising.  We know this because the shots had a downward trajectory.  If he was fully upright then in order to hit him in his shoulder and jaw the trajectory would have been up. No one holds a gun above eye level so they can shoot downward.  The only possibility other than Nevill not being fully upright would be the killer standing on the chair or something else as he fired which is highly unlikely. 

The trajectory of the lip shot is unclear. The chest shot potentially could have been fired while holding the weapon at eye level so it is possible he was upright at that point. The location of DRH/5 suggests it ricocheted off something because there is no natural way for Jeremy to target Nevill and it to land there unless Nevll was standing at the foot of the bed and Jeremy was near the boxroom door.  Why would Nevill stand with his left profile facing Jeremy at the foot of the bed instead of running away or running towards him? How would they switch positions anyway so that they would pass one another with Jeremy in the corner and Nevill at the foot? It makes no sense. 22LR ricochets are common. The combination of the shell casing locations, the shots coming to his left profile and the trajectory suggest Nevill was seated on the bed trying to get up as he was being shot. This would help explain why the shots were to his lip and jaw. He was rising so even though Jeremy aimed at his skull by the time the bullets were fired Nevill was higher up and they hit his lower face instead of upper head. And also would explain the graze wound.  Hitting moving targets where you want to is a skill. we are taught to predict where a target is moving to and aim for that location. Jeremy is very fortunate that the shot broke Nevill's arm or he would likely have been overpowered by Nevill in the kitchen.

Instead he was able to beat Nevill unconscious then he was able to reload the weapon and fired 4 shots to the head in two batches.  He doubletapped the trigger then moved slightly and did it again. 1 and 2 were fired in rapid succession and 3 and 4 in rapid succession.  There is no way to know which set was fired first.   


June
1) PV/25 between eyes
2) PV/26 above right ear
3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
5) PV/24 right upper chest
6) PV/23 lower chest
7) DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)

2,3,4,and 7 were all fired for sure while June was lying in bed.  5 and 6 may have been fired while she was in bed but could have been fired as she was getting out of bed or as soon as she got out of bed. The killer was firing to her right thus standing at the foot of the bed far enough towards Nevill's side to hit her from the right. Based on everything in totality it looks like she made it out of bed when the 2 chest shots were delivered thus the killer had to move further to the left and the casings ended up further towards the door. She walked around the bed then back towards the door and either collapsed or was shoved down.  While on the floor the gun was fired between her eyes. The head wound she suffered in bed would not allow her to survive long. It is unlikely she was still alive after the fight in the kitchen.  Thus most likely she was already dead at that point and it was simply to make sure she was dead.  If the killer had 11 rounds in the weapon at the outset then the killer could have thrown her on the ground and then shot her between the eyes to kill her. But if it was fired after he returned from the kitchen she was in all probability already dead. 

Someone tracked a casing from the kitchen to the hallway an it ended up against the wall. Someone must have kicked it off their shoe for it to end up right against the wall.  Was it the killer or police?  No one knows.  some raid team members note seeing the casing  but that doesn't preclude another member from depositing it there before they walked the hall.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli