Has Jeremy ever been assessed for psychopathy?

[Holly Goodhead]

YOU MUST BE PSYCHOPATHIC!

Definitely something creepy, as most children in the 1960's were taught to write in longhand, and did so throughout their teenage years and beyond.

At least JB's letters are legible unlike say many of the witness statements from police officers and experts:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=174.msg1783#msg1783

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.msg4425#msg4425

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=229.0;attach=782

Perhaps it was something that was encouraged at Greshams as his handwriting was poor.  Or perhaps its just a style that  for whatever reason he chose to adopt.  It's really silly to suggest there's something sinister in it.   

[puglove]

At least JB's letters are legible unlike say many of the witness statements from police officers and experts:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=174.msg1783#msg1783

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.msg4425#msg4425

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=229.0;attach=782

Perhaps it was something that was encouraged at Greshams as his handwriting was poor.  Or perhaps its just a style that  for whatever reason he chose to adopt.  It's really silly to suggest there's something sinister in it.

Personally, I think that it's massively sinister that he writes in shouty capitals. And why, after 30 years with nothing much else to do, has he still not bothered to learn to spell or punctuate?

[Holly Goodhead]

Personally, I think that it's massively sinister that he writes in shouty capitals. And why, after 30 years with nothing much else to do, has he still not bothered to learn to spell or punctuate?

I would want to SHOUT if I was communicating with Mike over getting a psychic involved.  He seems quite annoyed in that letter which does contain a couple of spelling mistakes.  I've just found his letters easy to understand and haven't thought too much about them other than am I handling a piece of paper from a monster or the victim of a terrible injustice.  I always wash my hands afterwards with anti-bacterial wash    There's always that nagging doubt  &%+((£

According to CAL's book he is about to embark on an OU course in Filosophy.  Perhaps he's getting Filosophical about his predicament 

[Holly Goodhead]

He certainly hasn't come over as SHOUTY in the letters I have received from him.  I would describe them as pleasant, light, cheerful, polite, interested, aware.

[puglove]

I would want to SHOUT if I was communicating with Mike over getting a psychic involved.  He seems quite annoyed in that letter which does contain a couple of spelling mistakes.  I've just found his letters easy to understand and haven't thought too much about them other than am I handling a piece of paper from a monster or the victim of a terrible injustice.  I always wash my hands afterwards with anti-bacterial wash    There's always that nagging doubt  &%+((£

According to CAL's book he is about to embark on an OU course in Filosophy.  Perhaps he's getting Filosophical about his predicament 

Ah yes. Mike's "psychic". Ali Bongo. AKA his sister's bloke, Pete.

WHAT a wanky episode that was!

[puglove]

He certainly hasn't come over as SHOUTY in the letters I have received from him.  I would describe them as pleasant, light, cheerful, polite, interested, aware.

Well, thank goodness for that! And there was me, worrying about the little scamp!

X

[Passer-by]

People with Aspergers often have terrible handwriting:  they have difficulty making the pen do what they want it to, my son's school has given him touch-typing lessons with a view to letting him work using a laptop in future if necessary.  He can type really fast, is a genius with Lego, but something goes wrong when pen goes to paper.  As a consequence quite a few older people who haven't had educational support find it easier and clearer to write in Capitals, where the lines are straighter and there aren't fiddly joiners.

Aspies can be super-flirtatious and very chatty and social:  bit of a misconception there that he'd find it hard talking to people.  If he's on the Spectrum he'll be high functioning:  his problem would be not seeing nuance and not predicting the logical social outcome of what he is saying - he would have found the moods of a needy demanding woman like Mugford very hard to understand.  You have to tell them clearly what you want, not expect them to guess - or they guess wrong.  If he was innocent he will just have assumed all he has to do is turn up, they have to prove him guilty - which as he's not they won't - and everything will be fine.  It won't have occurred to him that the legal system isn't about who is right or wrong, it's about who is smartest.

[puglove]

People with Aspergers often have terrible handwriting:  they have difficulty making the pen do what they want it to, my son's school has given him touch-typing lessons with a view to letting him work using a laptop in future if necessary.  He can type really fast, is a genius with Lego, but something goes wrong when pen goes to paper.  As a consequence quite a few older people who haven't had educational support find it easier and clearer to write in Capitals, where the lines are straighter and there aren't fiddly joiners.

Aspies can be super-flirtatious and very chatty and social:  bit of a misconception there that he'd find it hard talking to people.  If he's on the Spectrum he'll be high functioning:  his problem would be not seeing nuance and not predicting the logical social outcome of what he is saying - he would have found the moods of a needy demanding woman like Mugford very hard to understand.  You have to tell them clearly what you want, not expect them to guess - or they guess wrong.  If he was innocent he will just have assumed all he has to do is turn up, they have to prove him guilty - which as he's not they won't - and everything will be fine.  It won't have occurred to him that the legal system isn't about who is right or wrong, it's about who is smartest.

My mother has Aspergers. Fiercely intelligent, emotionally bankrupt, beautiful handwriting.

I guess we shouldn't generalise!   

[Passer-by]

I'm not generalising:  my other kid has full blown autism and the best handwriting in the family - because he's had support for it.  I suspect I'm on the spectrum myself - I used to write in beautiful copperplate.  The handwriting was just one possible indicator:  as you know, the trouble with the spectrum is the nuances from one diagnosis to the next!

It was the directness of his answers that struck me.  I could well imagine my husband or son giving the same ones!

[Daisy]

I'm not generalising:  my other kid has full blown autism and the best handwriting in the family - because he's had support for it.  I suspect I'm on the spectrum myself - I used to write in beautiful copperplate.  The handwriting was just one possible indicator:  as you know, the trouble with the spectrum is the nuances from one diagnosis to the next!

It was the directness of his answers that struck me.  I could well imagine my husband or son giving the same ones!

May I clear up some untruths about Jeremy.  First of all he does not have Aspergers and is not anywhere on the Autistic Spectrum.  I assume you have never had any contact with Jeremy or spoken to him.  I know him very well, have visited him on numerous occasions and spend many hours on the telephone with him.  He is as far away from Autism or Aspergers as you can get.  In fact when I have been with him it has been difficult to believe that we are in a prison setting.  He is a very intelligent, witty and sociable man and has coped remarkably well during his 30 years of incarceration.

As far as his handwriting goes, there is nothing sinister or shouty about his writing.  He had mild Dyslexia as a child and found it easier to write in capitals in order to visualise the words.  Actually a lot of men have untidy handwriting, my husband included.  Jeremy has learned to cope with Dyslexia but still makes the odd spelling mistake.  He has spent so long writing in capitals that it has become a habit now.  He has written to me in lower case and his handwriting is legible but a little untidy.

Please don't make assumptions about people who you don't know or who have never met.

None of the above proves whether he is innocent or guilty but I feel the need to protect him when people make comments which are passed from person and then are accepted as fact.

[Passer-by]

Thank you for your reply Daisy:  I didn't know he had dyslexia but that gives credence to what I'm saying, I suspect he may have learning disabilities which have caused him not to present himself as well as he might (especially in this modern age of 'spin', selfies and social media, which he has missed).  I think he has definitely suffered from people judging a book by its cover and is lucky to have people like you who are protective of him. 

But I think also your perceptions of Aspergers are a bit too stereotypical too:  none of the characteristics you describe preclude him from being on the high functioning end of the autism spectrum - thousands of people don't realise they have it (it was a hell of a shock when it landed in our family - we thought we were all perfectly normal - that's why we hadn't spotted it  )

To me, the answers he gives in the police interviews which other people have said were arrogant, just seem like he's trying to answer factually but can't quite understand what they are trying to get out of him - the person doing the questions doesn't exactly phrase them very well either.  They sound like a classic pre-ding dong chat round my dining table ;-)

There is a body of work out there investigating the differences and similarities between autistes, sociopaths and psychopaths, which have their own little spectrum as well:  people were much more judgemental and ignorant in the 80s about other people's slight differences.  Inoticed elsewhere that Ann Eaton used his thank you card from the flowers as evidence - possibly trying to link it to the capital lettered graffiti in the cupboard:  from what you have said it shows how little she must have known the family if she didn't know it was his usual writing?

No matter how nice you are about him, there is no getting away from the fact he was a complete Klutz the way he handled some things, which as he seems to be an intelligent man he must surely now recognise and regret.  So are you certain he has been tested for Aspergers?  It wouldn't be the same as tests for psychopathy I don't think.

[Passer-by]

PS Daisy:  he'd be in good company if he was!

http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.co.uk/2006/09/referenced-list-of-famous-or-important.html

I feel vindicated:  I've always said I thought Gordon Brown was on the spectrum.  Personally I think Margaret Thatcher should be there too.  Bummer about Adolf Hitler 

But seriously, it could explain why other people found his attitude a bit . . . off

[John]

Testing Jeremy these days is pointless as any psychiatrist will point out.   Thirty years in a Cat A prison will change a prisoner regardless of how strong he was when first consigned to custody.  Jeremy is remarkable in that he has consistently claimed innocence over all these years whereas most people would have accepted their fate by now.  The evidence does not support his claims however and that is the important issue in all of this.

[Passer-by]

Well I have to say, he has served the original sentence plus 5 years and the evidence is hardly incontrovertible.

I just feel deeply unhappy that anyone can be locked up for whole life tariff when there is a secret file of undisclosed evidence and all the original exhibits lost or destroyed:  it besmirches the whole justice system of this country.  And it has to be said, the newer evidence to be released shows how shaky the original evidence was, which backs his claims of a stitch up during a Golden Era of British Police Stitch-Ups.

I don't think he would be convicted if there was a retrial with the newer information as well, and I don't think it would be just because the jury thinks it's 'not proven', either.  There is far too much doubt in this case and the burden  of proof is meant to rest with the prosecution, not the defence.  law Courts aren't meant to convict people because 'he looks the type!'. 

[Angelo222]

Well I have to say, he has served the original sentence plus 5 years and the evidence is hardly incontrovertible.

I just feel deeply unhappy that anyone can be locked up for whole life tariff when there is a secret file of undisclosed evidence and all the original exhibits lost or destroyed:  it besmirches the whole justice system of this country.  And it has to be said, the newer evidence to be released shows how shaky the original evidence was, which backs his claims of a stitch up during a Golden Era of British Police Stitch-Ups.

I don't think he would be convicted if there was a retrial with the newer information as well, and I don't think it would be just because the jury thinks it's 'not proven', either.  There is far too much doubt in this case and the burden  of proof is meant to rest with the prosecution, not the defence.  law Courts aren't meant to convict people because 'he looks the type!'.

You must have been reading some of Mike Teskos crap.  There is no secret evidence file, the stuff kept under PII relates to events after the murder.  There is no doubt in the Bamber case so I suggest you do a tad more reading.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=77.msg526#msg526