The lockable from outside kitchen window. Why is this disputed ?

[Myster]

Then the caller must have been a good impressionist to convince Jeremy he was his dad!

First audio/video at 00:25... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151

[John]

Then the caller must have been a good impressionist to convince Jeremy he was his dad!

First audio/video at 00:25... http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151

I don't think we can take the suggestion that Nevill was forced to phone Jeremy too seriously since what was June doing whilst her husband was being threatened at gunpoint?

The evidence is clear on this point, June was shot several times while she lay in bed and only ever managed a few steps towards the bedroom door before she collapsed.

[Holly Goodhead]

Excellent work Myster.        The only avenue left to Jerry and his believers is to attempt to discredit Sheila but it won't work.

Agree and disagree.  Discrediting Sheila will not work but discrediting the silencer will.

[Holly Goodhead]

One new thing I've just learned from Lee's book (p.190) is that although all the downstair's windows were checked to be secure by DCI Taff Jones at around 9:15am, they had also been examined earlier by two police officers who found the shower room and kitchen fanlight to be unfastened. One of them, Sgt Stephen Golding stated in his w/s that he secured both so that they couldn't be moved but failed to inform his superiors.

So JBcould have parked his bike when he arrived near the Shower room window on the opposite side of the house to where the labrador was kept in a barn, so as not to disturb it. Then exited by the same window a lot more easily than the one in the kitchen, again without causing the dog to bark, jumped straight onto the bike, headed back home, and took a chance that the police wouldn't discover that the window was left unfastened.

There was no need for Sheila to wait with a rifle in Nevill's back while he phoned his son, or near the Shower room window had she killed mum, dad and her sons in advance. It makes no sense for her to beckon her brother over from 3 miles away in the middle of the night simply to kill him, because if she was determined to commit suicide, inherited money would be no use to her.

Could being the operative word 

P249 of CAL's book tells that on 21st Aug DB Barlow visited WHF to examine the windows.  He claimed that the kitchen window could be closed from outside and the catch dropped in the locked position.

In the COA doc the above is contradicted with:

273. Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:

"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window"

There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window.

274. In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote:

"22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed"

He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window. 275. It is also of significance that he recorded on 20 August 1985:

"They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".

This would appear to be the kitchen window and provides the explanation for DC Barlow's examination of the kitchen window.

[Angelo222]

An intruder (stranger) had no need to effect a covert entry and exit to the property.  All they had to do was knock on the door.  The murders were without any shadow of a doubt an INSIDE JOB!

Additionally, if someone had a grudge against the family and were intent upon mass murder they would not have entered the property and taken the risk of using unfamiliar weapons which they could not have necessarily known about in the first place.  An outsider would have used a pistol which he knew and was familiar with.

This all taken together brings us back to Sheila and Jeremy and since the forensics rules out Sheila the rest is academic me Lord.

[John]

An intruder (stranger) had no need to effect a covert entry and exit to the property.  All they had to do was knock on the door.  The murders were without any shadow of a doubt an INSIDE JOB!

Additionally, if someone had a grudge against the family and were intent upon mass murder they would not have entered the property and taken the risk of using unfamiliar weapons which they could not have necessarily known about in the first place.  An outsider would have used a pistol which he knew and was familiar with.

This all taken together brings us back to Sheila and Jeremy and since the forensics rules out Sheila the rest is academic me Lord.

You are too logical Angelo, surely he couldn't have been so naive as to think Essex Police would fall for it?    Oh I forgot...some of them did didn't they?

[Passer-by]

I don't think we can take the suggestion that Nevill was forced to phone Jeremy too seriously since what was June doing whilst her husband was being threatened at gunpoint?

The evidence is clear on this point, June was shot several times while she lay in bed and only ever managed a few steps towards the bedroom door before she collapsed.

I would imagine June was trying to crawl off the bed towards the door/landing.  Until SC returned to do the shot between the eyes:  deeply personal that.  Bear in mind that her illness caused her to think her nearest and dearest were actually being taken over by the devil.

[Holly Goodhead]

73. Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:

"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window"

There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window. 274. In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote:

"22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed"

He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window. 275. It is also of significance that he recorded on 20 August 1985:

"They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".

Pity DC Barlow only commented on the sash windows.  Which window is JB supposed to have exited by and was it sash? 

[Myster]

73. Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:

"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window"

There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window. 274. In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote:

"22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed"

He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window. 275. It is also of significance that he recorded on 20 August 1985:

"They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".

Pity DC Barlow only commented on the sash windows.  Which window is JB supposed to have exited by and was it sash?

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? 

Is this the side-hung opening casement window in the kitchen? ... which is the one he is thought to have exited, or the shower room sash window where he got in?  Or a different window altogether?

[Holly Goodhead]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? 

Is this the side-hung opening casement window in the kitchen? ... which is the one he is thought to have exited, or the shower room sash window where he got in?  Or a different window altogether?

The point I was endeavouring to make was to reassess the windows based on DC Barlow's post trial revelations ie was the window JB supposedly exited sash or not? 

The windows in the red brick part of the house don't give the appearance of sash?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=88.msg752#msg752

Anyway I can see the window he supposedly exited was a casing window:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947

[Myster]

That's right... on the kitchen side in the red brick part, all six windows are "mock-Georgian" hinged casements, but in the grey brick part to the right of the photo are two of the older sliding-sash type...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19595#msg19595

In one of the recent books, probably CAL's, JB refers to the kitchen window latch only dropping down to an 8 o'clock position when it was banged shut from outside. This is the larger window to the right in the photo attached. At first when his escape route was discussed I thought he had exited by that small open fanlight to the left, which would have been a struggle, if not impossible. Scipio suggested that it was the former larger window he first exited, banged that to, and then fastened its latch securely by reaching through the small fanlight. He then banged the fanlight to so that its bottom stay fell into place. But the simpler way would have been to just get out through the larger one, bang that to and hope the centre latch would drop down far enough to make it appear to police investigators that it was secure.

Any noise he made to disturb Bruce in the nearby barn wouldn't have mattered because all his family were dead. The nearest locals in Pages Lane were at a safe distance and not in earshot as well, so unlikely to have been woken up by any barking or window banging.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Holly Goodhead]

That's right... on the kitchen side in the red brick part, all six windows are "mock-Georgian" hinged casements, but in the grey brick part to the right of the photo are two of the older sliding-sash type...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg19595#msg19595

In one of the recent books, probably CAL's, JB refers to the kitchen window latch only dropping down to an 8 o'clock position when it was banged shut from outside. This is the larger window to the right in the photo attached. At first when his escape route was discussed I thought he had exited by that small open fanlight to the left, which would have been a struggle, if not impossible. Scipio suggested that it was the former larger window he first exited, banged that to, and then fastened its latch securely by reaching through the small fanlight. He then banged the fanlight to so that its bottom stay fell into place. But the simpler way would have been to just get out through the larger one, bang that to and hope the centre latch would drop down far enough to make it appear to police investigators that it was secure.

Any noise he made to disturb Bruce in the nearby barn wouldn't have mattered because all his family were dead. The nearest locals in Pages Lane were at a safe distance and not in earshot as well, so unlikely to have been woken up by any barking or window banging.

I think I can see the rusty hacksaw blade resting on the bird bath/table  &%+((£

I need to find my source re the window with cobwebs and wire mesh and I'll be back. 

[Myster]

I think I can see the rusty hacksaw blade resting on the bird bath/table  &%+((£

I need to find my source re the window with cobwebs and wire mesh and I'll be back.

Pffft!.. and I can see Brett Collins in a dress through the kitchen window. The hacksaw blade was found on the opposite side of the house, on the ground below the shower room window.

I think CAL mentioned the Dairy room window had mesh over it and was slightly open.*

* EDIT: page 159

[scipio_usmc]

Could being the operative word 

P249 of CAL's book tells that on 21st Aug DB Barlow visited WHF to examine the windows.  He claimed that the kitchen window could be closed from outside and the catch dropped in the locked position.

In the COA doc the above is contradicted with:

273. Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:

"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window"

There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window.

274. In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote:

"22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed"

He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window. 275. It is also of significance that he recorded on 20 August 1985:

"They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".

This would appear to be the kitchen window and provides the explanation for DC Barlow's examination of the kitchen window.

Your reading comprehension skills are quite lacking.  No where does the COA language you posted or any other language from that decision state that Barlow failed to find the window could not be locked from the outside.  It simply states he went there to check the window because the family told him it could be locked from the outside.  It doesn't anywhere suggest he failed to find out it could be locked as they claimed.  In fact he found that it could be locked as they claimed.

The Dickinson report expressly references his pocketbook:

[Holly Goodhead]

73. Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:

"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window"

There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window. 274. In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote:

"22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed"

He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window. 275. It is also of significance that he recorded on 20 August 1985:

"They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".

Pity DC Barlow only commented on the sash windows.  Which window is JB supposed to have exited by and was it sash?

Yes it's a pity at point 273 in the CoA doc that DC Barlow confirms he was unable to lock securely the sash windows from outside but doesn't comment on the other windows: 

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Although the CoA doc does go on to say that he should have reported his negative findings prior to trial:

276. It is never easy for officers engaged in major enquiries to know to what extent they should include negative findings, which may be very numerous in their statements. In the case of DC Barlow we conclude that he should have included the fact that he examined all the windows on the 22 August. We find no evidence to indicate that he deliberately omitted this negative finding. Again this information should have been disclosed prior to trial.

So DC Barlow examined all windows on 22nd August and the finding was negative?