Forensic evidence. Was there really none ?

[scipio_usmc]

Thanks Paul.

1. May I ask where you obtained AE's trial testimony from?

2. Are you able and willing to provide a full copy of AE's trial testimony for posters on the UK Justice forum?

3.  In her WS's AE makes absolutely no reference to children's tracksuit bottoms or indeed children's clothes.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3905.msg146309#msg146309

4. In her trial testimony above she makes reference to washing out children's clothes and putting them back in soak as they were still not clean.  Why would she do this when she knew the owners were deceased?  Again she makes no reference to putting items of clothing back in soak in her WS.

5.  Also she makes ref to a single episode in her WS.  In her trial testimony she makes ref to two episodes where on the second occasion RB is consulted.  In her WS this was all one single episode.

Her witness statements don't refer to a single episode.  Her statements detail that she) a) visited the house and found the dirty tracksuit bottoms/bloody panties;  2) decided to try cleaning same and left them to soak as she went back home; 3) she returned later with her father among others; 4) that the stains didn't come out and she asked her father what to do with the clothes and he said to throw them away so she did.

Obviously she thought that the clothing could be cleaned and then given away and used by someone else- that is the only reaosn to wash them instead of throwing them away immediately.

As for her trial testimony a portion is on blue and that is where the snippet I posted came from.  I extensively debated this issue on blue and cut and pasted snippets from her statements and testimony that referenced the clothing and how she disposed of it.  The things I cut and pasted from are all on blue.

 

[John]

In this case forensic evidence is impossible to obtain linking Jeremy Bamber directly to the murders because his prints and DNA were all over the farmhouse and the rifle from the start.

What forensics we do have however point to Jeremy Bamber being the culprit.

[david1819]

In this case forensic evidence is impossible to obtain linking Jeremy Bamber directly to the murders because his prints and DNA were all over the farmhouse and the rifle from the start.

What forensics we do have however point to Jeremy Bamber being the culprit.

Such as?

[scipio_usmc]

Such as?

Evidence that Sheila did not kill herself or anyone else.  That evidence proves someone else did it. It also proves Jeremy lied about his father calling to blame Sheila and proves he had knowledge of the crimes which is strong evidence he is the one who did it. When you add Julie's testimony to the mix the case was a slam dunk.  His supporters choose to ignore all the evidence though they have nothing to discredit it they just don't want to face it.

[John]

Such as?

Basically everything collected from the kitchen, hall, stairs, landing and bedrooms.   Because Jeremy had access to the property and the guns it is to be expected that his fingerprints and DNA be call over them.

One thing which is unusual though is the absence of his fingerprints on the murder weapon.  Clearly this rifle had been wiped and Sheilas prints put on it to incriminate her.  Sometimes it isn't the forensics one collects from the scene of a crime which is crucial but what is missing. 

[david1819]

Evidence that Sheila did not kill herself or anyone else.  That evidence proves someone else did it. It also proves Jeremy lied about his father calling to blame Sheila and proves he had knowledge of the crimes which is strong evidence he is the one who did it. When you add Julie's testimony to the mix the case was a slam dunk.  His supporters choose to ignore all the evidence though they have nothing to discredit it they just don't want to face it.

There is no evidence proving Shelia did not kill herself. Multiple gunshot suicides have been recorded many times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

I could not disagree more with your summing up of the trial. Julie's word against Jeremy's, a contaminated forensic exhibit. much new evidence has come to light since the trial and even back then it was 10-2 despite all the controversy hardy a 'slam dunk'

[John]

There is no evidence proving Shelia did not kill herself. Multiple gunshot suicides have been recorded many times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

I could not disagree more with your summing up of the trial. Julie's word against Jeremy's, a contaminated forensic exhibit. much new evidence has come to light since the trial and even back then it was 10-2 despite all the controversy hardy a 'slam dunk'

The evidence which proves Sheila could not have shot herself is everywhere.  A person who is effectively stunned/paralysed by a bullet in the neck is incapable of targeting a second shot.  Sheila never moved after the first shot evidenced by the undisturbed blood trails.

ps. please familiarise yourself with the facts.

[david1819]

The evidence which proves Sheila could not have shot herself is everywhere.  A person who is effectively stunned/paralysed by a bullet in the neck is incapable of targeting a second shot.  Sheila never moved after the first shot evidenced by the undisturbed blood trails.

ps. please familiarise yourself with the facts.

It is possible its called a nervous reflex action producing more gunshots. as stated in Brogdon's Forensic Radiology, Second Edition edited by Michael J. Thali, M.D., Mark D. Viner, B.G. Brogdon

How do you think multiple suicide shots to the head happen despite having ones brains hit by a bullet?

"One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, pulled out a pistol and shot himself in the head. After reloading the shotgun, he leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded a final time, walked 200 meters to a hill, sat down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."

[John]

Suicidal individuals who manage to shoot themselves twice have without exception not sustained a near fatal injury following the first shot.  The wound to Sheila's neck incapacitated her otherwise there would have been copious amounts of blood all over her neck, throat, mouth, rifle, nightie and fingers.

People fail to realise the enormous physiological disruption that a bullet fired at point blank range can cause to a body.  The suggestion that she simply picked up the rifle again, put it to her neck once more and fired it without smearing any blood is pure fantasy.

[scipio_usmc]

There is no evidence proving Shelia did not kill herself. Multiple gunshot suicides have been recorded many times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

I could not disagree more with your summing up of the trial. Julie's word against Jeremy's, a contaminated forensic exhibit. much new evidence has come to light since the trial and even back then it was 10-2 despite all the controversy hardy a 'slam dunk'

This site recounts the evidence thousands of times including many posts from myself listing same.

I can understand being a newbie but a newbie should not come to conclusions without doing some research and the most basic research of all is to research the evidence that convicted the defendant.

Relevant facts:

A) Sheila was shot with the moderator attached to the gun.  The fatal shot was a contact wound.  The location of the fatal shot and it being a contact wound means that drawback would have resulted.  Drawback means blood is drawn several inches into the weapon.  The blood sprays into the weapon. The moderator had her blood on the first 8 baffles.  The lab scraped all visible blood from these baffles.  The defense expert still managed to find microscopic traces on the first 8 baffles. In contrast there was no blood in the barrel of the rifle.  had she been shot with the rifle sans moderator then her blood would have been in the rifle not inside the moderator.

B) If Sheila loaded the rifle she would have had elevated lead deposits on her hand and in fact there would have been visible black marks on her hands

C) If Sheila fired the rifle she would have had GSR on her hands and clothing.  In order to kill herself she would have to have hugged the rifle and her gown would have had GSR deposited on it.  Her gown and hands were negative for GSR though she didn't even have a single particle though.

D) If Sheila had shot June and Neville then she would have had high velocity impact blood spatter from these victims on her clothing.  The shooter was close enough that the backspatter would have gotten on the shooter.

E) If Sheila had beaten Neville then she would have had medium velocity impact spatter on her clothing. During the beating from the rifle his blood got all over the weapon and would have gotten on the killer as well.

F) Since the weapon was covered in blood the killer's fingerprints would have been found in such blood unless the killer was wearing gloves.  There were no gloves at the scene that Sheila could have worn and no reason for her to wear gloves if she planned to commit murder suicide.  People wear gloves when they hope to avoid liability.

G) After the murders the moderator was removed from the rifle and put away in the downstairs closet. Quite obviously Sheila could not have done this after she was dead.

H) After the murders the bible was placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila's death and while the blood was still wet the bible was closed then reopened.  The closing of the bible resulted in a mirror image on 2 adjacent pages. The blood did not flow around the bible the bible was placed in the blood pool.  Quite obviously Sheila could not have done such after she was dead.

I) Jeremy claims that he took a box of ammo that was full or near full from the closet and dumped it out in the kitchen.  A full box contained 50 rounds so that is the maximum.  25 rounds were used during the murders. There thus should have been no more than 25 rounds remaining.  There were 30 rounds remaining. This proves Jeremy staged these bullets after the murders because there is no way the killer would have used 20 bullets form this supply and decided to go to the closet to get 5 additional rounds instead of continuing to use the same supply.

J) Sheila would have damaged her nails while beating Nevill with the rifle and would have cut her hand when the stock of the rifle broke.  Only if the killer was wearing gloves would the stock cracking not result in cutting or at least scratching the hand of the killer that was on the stock. It broke exactly where one of the killer's hands would have been while using it to bludgeon Neville. This is likely what tore off Jeremy's glove which he told julie had happened.


The evidence shows that Sheila didn't load the weapon, didn't fire the weapon, wasn't near her mother or father when they were shot, wasn't near her father when he was beaten, and can't have shot herself.  Someone else killed everyone then afterwards removed the moderator, put it int he closet and while her blood was sitll wet placed the bible in pool of her blood.

There is no question of Jeremy's guilt to anyone who actually is aware of the facts and evidence and is objective enough to face it instead of irrationally ignoring it.

[adam]

In this case forensic evidence is impossible to obtain linking Jeremy Bamber directly to the murders because his prints and DNA were all over the farmhouse and the rifle from the start.

What forensics we do have however point to Jeremy Bamber being the culprit.

The thread post shows there is forensic evidence.

[scipio_usmc]

What the forensic evidence demonstrates happened:

1) The killer removed the phone from the bedroom in advance to make sure that the parents would not be able to call for help

2) The killer removed the scope in advance and loaded 10 or 11 rounds into the weapon.

3) The killer entered the master bedroom and shot June 6 times (or 7 times if the gun had 11 rounds) 4 for sure were delivered while June was in bed.  2 more could have been delivered as she was in bed or as she got up. The last was delivered between her eyes when she was lying on the floor.  Neville was shot 4 times after he got out of bed.  His left profile was facing the killer.   

4) The gun was empty and either the killer ran away to get more ammo and Neville gave chase or somehow Neville got out the bedroom door past the killer and ran to the Kitchen to grab a weapon and the killer gave chase

5) In the kitchen Neville grabbed the weapon and tried to take it away from the killer.  As they struggled over control of the weapon it broke the ceiling light, scratched the mantle and knocked things onto the floor so that the floor had shards of glass and crockery.

6) Eventually the killer gained sole control of the weapon and bashed Neville with it.  The killer struck him with the butt of the weapon.  Neville tried to block the blows with his left arm.  In the process his arm was gauged and his watch torn off.  Medium velocity impact blood spatter got on the weapon and killer in the process. The killer bashed the butt of the weapon into Neville’s head with such force that part of the stock broke.  It broke exactly where the killer was holding the stock.  Neville was knocked out in the process.  The killer was wearing gloves and that prevented the killer’s fingerprints from being found in the blood that was on the weapon.  Furthermore it protected the killer’s hand when the stock broke otherwise the killer’s hand would have been cut or at least scratched when it broke.

7) After Neville was unconscious the killer partially reloaded and fired 4 shots into Neville’s head (killing him) before he could wake up.   

8) The killer then reloaded so that the gun had either 10 or 11 rounds and went upstairs.  If 11 rounds that means the gun only had 10 at the outset and the killer went to June’s dead body and fired a shot between her eyes to make sure she was dead.  If only 10 then that means the gun had 11 at the outset and that all 7 shots to June happened initially.  The killer then went to the boy’s room and fired 8 rounds into them. That means only 2 bullets left in the gun. 

9) The killer either dragged Sheila into her parents’ room, chased her in, or she was in there already and she ran to the other side of the room before the killer caught her.  The killer had her sit down propped against something, held the gun an inch or so from her neck and fired into her neck at nearly a 90 degree angle.  The shot thus traveled from the front of her neck to the back, and thus failed to immediately kill her.  The killer then stuck the gun into her chin, pushed her head back so that the gun was aiming at her brain and fired. The bullet traveled into her head as desired this time instantly killing her.  Because it was a contact wound her blood was deposited into the moderator.  Her blood sprayed onto each of the first 8 baffles.     

10) The killer then removed the moderator and put it in the closet. 

11) Because she was seated blood dripped down her neck onto her gown.  The killer wanted to place the gun on her body but could not do so with her seated thus dragged Sheila’s body flat and placed the gun on her.  The blood flow changed after she was moved flat it went down the side of her neck onto the floor and pooled near her shoulder.   

12) After the blood pooled the killer sat the bible in such pool of blood.  The killer accidentally closed it and reopened it. Closing it while wet result in mirror image stains on both sides of adjacent pages.  It was then placed in the wet pool of blood again and left there.  Has Sheila been reading it the bible would have been by her waste sticking it by her head was a dead giveaway it was placed there after but even worse placing it in the pool of blood that formed after her death proves she didn’t place it there but rather someone else did.

13) The killer staged 30 unspent rounds in the kitchen. 

This is what the physical evidence demonstrates occurred. 

The killer only could be Jeremy.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

What the forensic evidence demonstrates happened:

1) The killer removed the phone from the bedroom in advance to make sure that the parents would not be able to call for help

2) The killer removed the scope in advance and loaded 10 or 11 rounds into the weapon.

3) The killer entered the master bedroom and shot June 6 times (or 7 times if the gun had 11 rounds) 4 for sure were delivered while June was in bed.  2 more could have been delivered as she was in bed or as she got up. The last was delivered between her eyes when she was lying on the floor.  Neville was shot 4 times after he got out of bed.  His left profile was facing the killer.   

4) The gun was empty and either the killer ran away to get more ammo and Neville gave chase or somehow Neville got out the bedroom door past the killer and ran to the Kitchen to grab a weapon and the killer gave chase

5) In the kitchen Neville grabbed the weapon and tried to take it away from the killer.  As they struggled over control of the weapon it broke the ceiling light, scratched the mantle and knocked things onto the floor so that the floor had shards of glass and crockery.

6) Eventually the killer gained sole control of the weapon and bashed Neville with it.  The killer struck him with the butt of the weapon.  Neville tried to block the blows with his left arm.  In the process his arm was gauged and his watch torn off.  Medium velocity impact blood spatter got on the weapon and killer in the process. The killer bashed the butt of the weapon into Neville’s head with such force that part of the stock broke.  It broke exactly where the killer was holding the stock.  Neville was knocked out in the process.  The killer was wearing gloves and that prevented the killer’s fingerprints from being found in the blood that was on the weapon.  Furthermore it protected the killer’s hand when the stock broke otherwise the killer’s hand would have been cut or at least scratched when it broke.

7) After Neville was unconscious the killer partially reloaded and fired 4 shots into Neville’s head (killing him) before he could wake up.   

8) The killer then reloaded so that the gun had either 10 or 11 rounds and went upstairs.  If 11 rounds that means the gun only had 10 at the outset and the killer went to June’s dead body and fired a shot between her eyes to make sure she was dead.  If only 10 then that means the gun had 11 at the outset and that all 7 shots to June happened initially.  The killer then went to the boy’s room and fired 8 rounds into them. That means only 2 bullets left in the gun. 

9) The killer either dragged Sheila into her parents’ room, chased her in, or she was in there already and she ran to the other side of the room before the killer caught her.  The killer had her sit down propped against something, held the gun an inch or so from her neck and fired into her neck at nearly a 90 degree angle.  The shot thus traveled from the front of her neck to the back, and thus failed to immediately kill her.  The killer then stuck the gun into her chin, pushed her head back so that the gun was aiming at her brain and fired. The bullet traveled into her head as desired this time instantly killing her.  Because it was a contact wound her blood was deposited into the moderator.  Her blood sprayed onto each of the first 8 baffles.     

10) The killer then removed the moderator and put it in the closet. 

11) Because she was seated blood dripped down her neck onto her gown.  The killer wanted to place the gun on her body but could not do so with her seated thus dragged Sheila’s body flat and placed the gun on her.  The blood flow changed after she was moved flat it went down the side of her neck onto the floor and pooled near her shoulder.   

12) After the blood pooled the killer sat the bible in such pool of blood.  The killer accidentally closed it and reopened it. Closing it while wet result in mirror image stains on both sides of adjacent pages.  It was then placed in the wet pool of blood again and left there.  Has Sheila been reading it the bible would have been by her waste sticking it by her head was a dead giveaway it was placed there after but even worse placing it in the pool of blood that formed after her death proves she didn’t place it there but rather someone else did.

13) The killer staged 30 unspent rounds in the kitchen. 

This is what the physical evidence demonstrates occurred. 

The killer only could be Jeremy.

I'm not going round in circles with you Paul covering the same ground.  Regular posters are offay with my stance and anyone new can read my posts.  I am only responding to new points.

Where's the evidence that JB staged 30 unspent rounds in the kitchen?  The CoA doc at point 32 states:

32. Reconnaissance of the farmhouse revealed all the doors to be shut, as were the windows save for one in the main bedroom on the first floor. At about 7.30 a.m., the decision was made to enter the farmhouse and not long afterwards officers moved into place. Through the kitchen window, an officer observed the body of what appeared to be a woman but was in fact Mr. Bamber. Entry was then forced through the rear door which had been locked from the inside.

The discovery of the bodies and the scene within the house 33. In the kitchen the police found Nevill Bamber's body slumped forward over an overturned chair next to the hearth, so that his head was just above a coal scuttle. The police evidence was that there were other chairs and stools upturned and broken crockery, sugar and what appeared to be spots of blood on the floor. A ceiling light lampshade had also been broken. It will be necessary to address further these matter later but on the evidence available at trial, it appeared as though a violent struggle had taken place. On one of the surfaces there was a telephone with the receiver off the cradle. A quantity of .22 shells was beside it.

[Holly Goodhead]

This site recounts the evidence thousands of times including many posts from myself listing same.

I can understand being a newbie but a newbie should not come to conclusions without doing some research and the most basic research of all is to research the evidence that convicted the defendant.

Relevant facts:

A) Sheila was shot with the moderator attached to the gun.  The fatal shot was a contact wound.  The location of the fatal shot and it being a contact wound means that drawback would have resulted.  Drawback means blood is drawn several inches into the weapon.  The blood sprays into the weapon. The moderator had her blood on the first 8 baffles.  The lab scraped all visible blood from these baffles.  The defense expert still managed to find microscopic traces on the first 8 baffles. In contrast there was no blood in the barrel of the rifle.  had she been shot with the rifle sans moderator then her blood would have been in the rifle not inside the moderator.

B) If Sheila loaded the rifle she would have had elevated lead deposits on her hand and in fact there would have been visible black marks on her hands

C) If Sheila fired the rifle she would have had GSR on her hands and clothing.  In order to kill herself she would have to have hugged the rifle and her gown would have had GSR deposited on it.  Her gown and hands were negative for GSR though she didn't even have a single particle though.

D) If Sheila had shot June and Neville then she would have had high velocity impact blood spatter from these victims on her clothing.  The shooter was close enough that the backspatter would have gotten on the shooter.

E) If Sheila had beaten Neville then she would have had medium velocity impact spatter on her clothing. During the beating from the rifle his blood got all over the weapon and would have gotten on the killer as well.

F) Since the weapon was covered in blood the killer's fingerprints would have been found in such blood unless the killer was wearing gloves.  There were no gloves at the scene that Sheila could have worn and no reason for her to wear gloves if she planned to commit murder suicide.  People wear gloves when they hope to avoid liability.

G) After the murders the moderator was removed from the rifle and put away in the downstairs closet. Quite obviously Sheila could not have done this after she was dead.

H) After the murders the bible was placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila's death and while the blood was still wet the bible was closed then reopened.  The closing of the bible resulted in a mirror image on 2 adjacent pages. The blood did not flow around the bible the bible was placed in the blood pool.  Quite obviously Sheila could not have done such after she was dead.

I) Jeremy claims that he took a box of ammo that was full or near full from the closet and dumped it out in the kitchen.  A full box contained 50 rounds so that is the maximum.  25 rounds were used during the murders. There thus should have been no more than 25 rounds remaining.  There were 30 rounds remaining. This proves Jeremy staged these bullets after the murders because there is no way the killer would have used 20 bullets form this supply and decided to go to the closet to get 5 additional rounds instead of continuing to use the same supply.

J) Sheila would have damaged her nails while beating Nevill with the rifle and would have cut her hand when the stock of the rifle broke.  Only if the killer was wearing gloves would the stock cracking not result in cutting or at least scratching the hand of the killer that was on the stock. It broke exactly where one of the killer's hands would have been while using it to bludgeon Neville. This is likely what tore off Jeremy's glove which he told julie had happened.


The evidence shows that Sheila didn't load the weapon, didn't fire the weapon, wasn't near her mother or father when they were shot, wasn't near her father when he was beaten, and can't have shot herself.  Someone else killed everyone then afterwards removed the moderator, put it int he closet and while her blood was sitll wet placed the bible in pool of her blood.

There is no question of Jeremy's guilt to anyone who actually is aware of the facts and evidence and is objective enough to face it instead of irrationally ignoring it.

As previously stated Paul I am only answering new points raised.  You claim NB's blood was all over the rifle.  Can you provide evidence of this?  The CoA doc as follows:

71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful. A "pull-through" on the barrel of the rifle was conducted for any traces of blood within the weapon. There were none.

With regard to the ammo found on the kitchen top please provide evidence as your assertion of 30 unspent cartridges contradicts the CoA doc:

On one of the surfaces there was a telephone with the receiver off the cradle. A quantity of .22 shells was beside it.

[Myster]

Why do you insist on calling scipio ~ Paul, when he's told you that his name is John?