Author Topic: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.  (Read 30532 times)

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Offline Myster

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Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #330 on: February 09, 2019, 05:40:25 PM »
Follow this YouTuber's walk from Main Road to crime scene...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v29hJuuj0xY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgeBQe0SPYE

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #331 on: February 10, 2019, 09:14:11 AM »
Holly,

51.642250, 0.558556

This is the exact location give or take a few feet. The lane has been resurfaced and widened since 1995 so it doesn't look that familiar from the original photos.

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.64225,0.55855,16/pin

Regards

I initially thought the above based on the descriptions of the Theobalds, owners of White House Farm, along with other bits of info.  However the CoA doc refers to the Range Rover being the far end of Workhouse Lane as do the narrated vids (I think) uploaded by Myster and yet the two places are some considerable distance apart and as far as I can't see there's no direct link between the two places? 

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CMain%20Rd,%20Rettendon%20Common,%20Chelmsford%20CM3%208DL,%20UK%7C%7C0.553652%7C51.642676%7CtoNode=0%7CWorkhouse%20Ln,%20Chelmsford%20CM3,%20UK%7C%7C0.594598%7C51.659120

From CoA

Based upon the evidence of Nicholls, it has always been the case for the prosecution that these calls were made by Whomes, immediately after the murders, as he and Steele summoned Nicholls to pick them up; if this be right, the call must have been made as he moved off down the lane from the Range Rover, which was parked at the far end of Workhouse Lane, just short of the gate.
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #332 on: February 10, 2019, 09:30:30 AM »
And it appears the engineer David Bristowe carried out his tests based on Workhouse Lane.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6020.msg512240#msg512240

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Offline Myster

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Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #333 on: February 10, 2019, 09:54:12 AM »
And it appears the engineer David Bristowe carried out his tests based on Workhouse Lane.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6020.msg512240#msg512240
Might be because the actual farm track was also called Workhouse Lane, but too insignificant be be annotated as such on a map.

Ken Jiggins and Peter Theobald discovered the Range Rover, when out to feed their pheasants. Theobold owned the land and his White House Farm is located quite close to the unnamed track in the video.

This is your Workhouse Lane, quite unlike the actual crime scene, and nowhere near WHF...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Workhouse+Ln,+Chelmsford/@51.6583545,0.5932246,644m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8dd156990c79b:0x43901a764acde8af!8m2!3d51.6591199!4d0.5945979

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6586063,0.5928998,3a,60y,62.18h,87.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sm3shhTnGzyhI7VDLV17fSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Offline Chud

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #334 on: February 10, 2019, 10:22:46 AM »
I initially thought the above based on the descriptions of the Theobalds, owners of White House Farm, along with other bits of info.  However the CoA doc refers to the Range Rover being the far end of Workhouse Lane as do the narrated vids (I think) uploaded by Myster and yet the two places are some considerable distance apart and as far as I can't see there's no direct link between the two places? 

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CMain%20Rd,%20Rettendon%20Common,%20Chelmsford%20CM3%208DL,%20UK%7C%7C0.553652%7C51.642676%7CtoNode=0%7CWorkhouse%20Ln,%20Chelmsford%20CM3,%20UK%7C%7C0.594598%7C51.659120

From CoA

Based upon the evidence of Nicholls, it has always been the case for the prosecution that these calls were made by Whomes, immediately after the murders, as he and Steele summoned Nicholls to pick them up; if this be right, the call must have been made as he moved off down the lane from the Range Rover, which was parked at the far end of Workhouse Lane, just short of the gate.

This has been the subject of many debates and youtube videos but am 100% sure that is the location. Unfortunately I can't seem to work out how to post images on the forum but if you look at the site on google maps aerial terrain view you can clearly match this up against the aerial views of press photos. There's an oak tree in view on the offside of the vehicle which had shed it leaves but is clearly visible on the google maps. I know all trees look the same but you have to view it to decide for yourself.

I can only assume he conducted his tests in the correct place, I'll double check for coordinates but he apparently made a series of test calls walking back along from the murder location to the entrance where Nichols apparently waited for them to return.


Offline Myster

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Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #335 on: February 10, 2019, 11:49:35 AM »
A 1996 Crimewatch reconstruction at the actual location before the farm track had been widened, with actors playing the parts of Theobald and Jiggins.  Note the metal gate which has a wider gap between the top and second horizontal bars than those lower down, exactly as it was in the original SOC photo below the link...

https://youtu.be/dOm4waNyvVA?t=115


Offline Chud

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #336 on: February 10, 2019, 12:04:19 PM »
Yep that's the actual place..

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #337 on: February 10, 2019, 10:14:57 PM »
Might be because the actual farm track was also called Workhouse Lane, but too insignificant be be annotated as such on a map.

Ken Jiggins and Peter Theobald discovered the Range Rover, when out to feed their pheasants. Theobold owned the land and his White House Farm is located quite close to the unnamed track in the video.

This is your Workhouse Lane, quite unlike the actual crime scene, and nowhere near WHF...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Workhouse+Ln,+Chelmsford/@51.6583545,0.5932246,644m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8dd156990c79b:0x43901a764acde8af!8m2!3d51.6591199!4d0.5945979

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6586063,0.5928998,3a,60y,62.18h,87.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sm3shhTnGzyhI7VDLV17fSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Yep that must be right.  Reasons why:

- CoA doc also refers to Meadow Lane and you can see how close this is to the point identified by Chud on ordnance survey map:

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.64225,0.55855,16/pin

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CMain%20Rd,%20Rettendon%20Common,%20Chelmsford%20CM3%208DL,%20UK%7C%7C0.553652%7C51.642676%7CtoNode=0%7CMeadow%20Rd,%20Rettendon%20Common,%20Chelmsford%20CM3,%20UK%7C%7C0.560390%7C51.635951

- One of the vids featuring Det Sup Ivan Dibley at the soc shows a house on a hill to the right (of Range Rover facing forward) which correspond to contours and Rettendon House on ordnance survey map.

- Peter Theobald refers to a pond the other side of the gate which is also depicted on ordnance survey map.

Sorted  ?>)()<  8((()*/

I don't really agree with the description 'remote location'.

How did you know about this little known lane?
Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Myster

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Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #338 on: February 11, 2019, 05:24:48 AM »
Yep that must be right.  Reasons why:

- CoA doc also refers to Meadow Lane and you can see how close this is to the point identified by Chud on ordnance survey map:

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/51.64225,0.55855,16/pin

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CMain%20Rd,%20Rettendon%20Common,%20Chelmsford%20CM3%208DL,%20UK%7C%7C0.553652%7C51.642676%7CtoNode=0%7CMeadow%20Rd,%20Rettendon%20Common,%20Chelmsford%20CM3,%20UK%7C%7C0.560390%7C51.635951

- One of the vids featuring Det Sup Ivan Dibley at the soc shows a house on a hill to the right (of Range Rover facing forward) which correspond to contours and Rettendon House on ordnance survey map.

- Peter Theobald refers to a pond the other side of the gate which is also depicted on ordnance survey map.

Sorted  ?>)()< 8((()*/

I don't really agree with the description 'remote location'.

How did you know about this little known lane?
Because men have better map reading and 3d spatial manipulation ability than women.   ?{)(**

Offline Myster

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Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #339 on: February 11, 2019, 05:33:40 AM »
On the other hand, women are better at getting their kit off like stockingless bluestocking Victoria Bateman.  8(8-))

https://twitter.com/vnbateman

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #340 on: February 11, 2019, 08:50:12 AM »
Because men have better map reading and 3d spatial manipulation ability than women.   ?{)(**

Until it comes to reconciling spent casings with the locations of perp/victim  8(0(*
Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #341 on: February 11, 2019, 09:42:44 AM »
This has been the subject of many debates and youtube videos but am 100% sure that is the location. Unfortunately I can't seem to work out how to post images on the forum but if you look at the site on google maps aerial terrain view you can clearly match this up against the aerial views of press photos. There's an oak tree in view on the offside of the vehicle which had shed it leaves but is clearly visible on the google maps. I know all trees look the same but you have to view it to decide for yourself.

I can only assume he conducted his tests in the correct place, I'll double check for coordinates but he apparently made a series of test calls walking back along from the murder location to the entrance where Nichols apparently waited for them to return.

I don't think there's any doubt your coordinates are correct.  David Bristowe also referred to a hill interrupting the signal from the Hockley mast which can be evidenced from the contours on the ordinance survey map which lead away form the Workhouse Lane adjacent to White House Farm and across to Rettendon House with Hockley the other side.  Also Peter Theobald refers to fishing beyond the gate which again can be evidenced from the map. 

I wouldn't describe the soc as a 'remote'.  I see more evidence this location was chosen to drown out the sound of gunshot (being next to a shooting range) rather than a potential landing strip for a light aircraft.  Did anyone check out the viability of landing a plane in this location given the hilly nature of the ground?  Steele's MO was importing cannabis from Europe via RIB.  The trio knew the drugs market and would know plane drops of cocaine were not his market.   

There are also reasons why the trio may have been familiar with the location. Tucker had horses/stables.  Tate's former partner, Sarah Saunders, at one time rode horses along with Jackie Street, Steele's partner.  There are a number of liveries and equestrian centers in the area.  White House Farm sold hay/straw among other things.  Plus Tucker's legitimate businesses included debt collection and a bailiff by the name of Mr Jackson rented an out-building off the owners of White House Farm.  Did anyone check out whether or not Mr Jackson knew the trio?  In any event I don't see the location as remote and hitherto unknown to the trio where they would need an escort to locate.  It's an ideal place off a main road but out of view to ostensibly exchange drugs/money or carry out other such illegal activity.   

Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #342 on: February 11, 2019, 10:09:04 AM »
02/01/96 - STATEMENT of ANDREW CHARLES REYNOLDS

NAME: ANDREW CHARLES REYNOLDS
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 26 02121969

Who states:- This statement consisting of 005 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

DATED: 020196
A C REYNOLDS (SIGNED)

I currently work as a mechanic at Basildon Tyre Services, Cranes Close, Basildon where I have worked for the last year. There are four other people who work at the garage they are Colin RUSSELL, the new manager, Steve THOMAS who is like the assistant manager and two tyre fitters Alan CREW and Rob who I can not remember his surname.

Part of our work involves carrying out repair work on motor vehicles. Since my school days I knew Craig ROLFE on a friendship basis only but not on a social level. After I started working at the garage I became aware of Craig ROLFE's friends whom he socialised with these were Tony TUCKER and PAT TATE.

I knew Tony before but only as a person who used to work on the doors at night clubs. Pat TATE I only met a few months ago when he came with Craig and Tony into the garage when I was working. From early 001195 Craig started to bring vehicles to the garage to be fixed.

The first vehicle was a Peugeot which over a period of a week or so Craig brought it in twice, first for the brakes and secondly for the engine which had blown. As a result of this Craig borrowed a blue 'J' registered Vauxhall Fronteira from the garage. Due to having the vehicle in, Craig always used to ring the garage to check up on it.

Around about 290000, 301195 Tony and Craig brought in a private plated Vitara motor vehicle coloured metallic blue and grey for new tyres. I had been awaiting this vehicle as Craig had been ringing us to ask us when we had the tyres ready.

As far as I am aware the Vitara belonged to Tony's girlfriend. They took the vehicle the same day, having waited for the tyres to be fitted, however on the following Monday, 041295 the Vitara was brought back to us as it had lost reverse. The following day 051295 Tony called the garage and asked to pick up the Vitara however the vehicle needed longer for repair so it was kept until the 061200.

On 061295 I was again working at the garage when about 1000 hours to 1100 hours Pat TATE arrived at the garage with a girl I knew only as Pat's girlfriend Liz. They arrived by car, Pat in his black E or F registered 190 Mercedes and Liz in a Polo motor vehicle black in colour on an E or F plate.

The Polo was left at the garage for repair and Pat then phoned someone who he called Tony and I took this to be Tony TUCKER. He asked him about the Vitara and arrangements were made that Pat would take the Vitara away and Liz drove the Mercedes away.

Some time that afternoon Steve told me that Pat had telephoned and from talking with Steve I understood that Pat was desperate to get the Polo back for his girlfriend. Later that day I received a call at the garage from Pat who asked about collecting the Polo and arrangements were made that if Pat had not turned up by 1800 hours when we were due to close then I would leave the Polo on the forecourt with the keys in the glovebox.

At 1800 hours on 061295 the garage closed and I left the Polo on the forecourt with the keys in as arranged with Pat. As I drove away from the garage in my white Astra van registration C385VAA, Steve was behind me in his E registered grey BMW 325 and in front up me was Alan in in blue Orion the registration I knew as G- ENO.

I drove onto Cranes Close and along Cranes Farm Road towards the roundabout junction with East Maine. Basildon. As I got to the roundabout, the time was only about 1805 hours, I saw a blue Range Rover which I recognised as one Craig, Tony and Pat use.

I knew it was them and their Range Rover as I had seen them with it on several occasions before. I could clearly see Craig was driving, Tony was in the front passenger seat and their was a stocky male between the seats at the back and I took this to be Pat TATE as this was the usual way they sat when I had seen them in the past.

They were travelling on the other side of Cranes Farm Road in the opposite direction to me, heading towards the garage and I thought they were going to collect the Polo. I recall the registration of the Range Rover as an 'F' plate. About 2100 hours to 2200 hours that evening I had cause to drive down Cranes Farm Close and past the garage.

I looked and saw the Polo had gone and I took it that Pat had collected it. I never saw Craig, Tony and Pat again. Some time in the afternoon of Thursday 071295 I was working at the garage when I heard that all three had been found dead in a Range Rover. This started as a result of calls being made to the garage about a report of a Range Rover being found with three dead people inside.

Believing it was Craig. Pat and Tony I telephoned Pat's girlfriend 'Liz' about 1400 hours to 1500 hours that same afternoon. I telephoned one of Pat's mobile phone numbers which was answered by a female who I took to be 'Liz'. I asked her about the killings and she said she didn't know anything.

On Tuesday 020195 police attended my home and asked me about telephone calls recorded as having been made to the garage. I can only state that these calls would all have been in relation to the vehicles Craig, Pat and Tony had either left with us or were making arrangements to drop them off.

The telephone number for the garage for people to call outside the company is 01268 - 520537. There is another number but this is for company use only. I only saw the three in the vehicle at 1805 hours on 060000 and I did not look to see if there was anyone else. I cannot recall what they were wearing.

A C REYNOLDS SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN PLACE:
TIME: 2015
DATE: 020196
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE:
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: PC537 CHAPPLE

This sighting/witness sound reliable.   Andrew Reynolds left his place of work at 1800 hours and some 5 mins into the journey he clocks the trio. 

What's interesting is that he refers to Tate's girlfriend as 'Liz'.  This I believe is Liz Fletcher who featured in one of the vids and was depicted as Tate's then girlfriend.  She is also referred to in Donna Jagger's WS as one of three females who accompanied Rolfe and Tate to collect the cash refund in respect of the dodgy batch of cannabis.  And yet on the night of the murders, according to Donna Jagger's WS, a 'Clare' was due to accompany Tate for the jolly up at the Romford restaurant.  This would explain Andrew Reynolds account of phoning Liz during 7th Dec and her being unaware of deaths.  Donna Jagger and Anna Whitehead exchanged phone conversations on night of 6th Dec and morning of 7th Dec but as far as I can see there's no such contact between the pair with a 'Clare'.  Anyone know anything about Clare?  If Clare was expecting to be picked up by Tate or meet him somewhere for the night out and he didn't show she would surely attempt to make contact with him and/or his associates in an attempt to discover his whereabouts?
Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #343 on: February 11, 2019, 11:48:35 AM »
According to Donna Jagger's WS Rolfe dropped her off at Lakeside at 1745 hours.  The Crimewatch prog has Rolfe leaving Lakeside at 1800 hours.  Andrew Reynolds states he saw the trio in the Range Rover at 18.05 on Cranes Farm Road:

Lakeside @ 1745/1800 hours - Brynmount Lodge, Fobbing = 18 mins

Brynmount Lodge - Gordon Rd, Basildon = 7 mins

Gordon Rd - Cranes Farm Road = 7 mins  = 1817/1832 hours

So based on the WS's of DJ and AR its 12 mins out.  This doesn't take into account Tate/Tucker physically coming out of houses and getting into Range Rover.  Could all this be offset by unknown variables: actual time left Lakeside and Rolfe's style of driving?  I think AR's account is probably the most reliable.

It is then claimed the trio went over to Halfway House, Brentwood and then Hungry Horse/Travellers Joy, Rayleigh before ending up at Workhouse Lane?

Cranes Farm Road @ 1805 - Halfway House = 14 mins

Halfway House - Hungry Horse = 16 mins

Hungry Horse - White House Farm/Workhouse Lane = 9 mins  Arrival = 18.44/coincides with the time of Sarah Saunder's tel call

If Nicholls, Steele and Whomes were at Halfway House when Range Rover arrived they would need to leave Marks Tey at 17.37pm. 

At 17.12 Whomes used his mobile to call Steele's mobile where did this place the pair by way of cell sites?

Imo the only way forward for Steele/Whomes is to challenge the mobile phone evidence not in the way it has been done historically by just focusing on the Whomes/Nicholls calls at 18.59 but all the phone evidence in an attempt to challenge Nicholls testimony about the journey from Marks Tey to Brentwood/Rayleigh/Rettendon and also the phone boxes earlier in the day.  Also the potential to show Rolfe/Tate/Tucker either made or received mobile calls after 18.59.  If it can be shown 1 or more of the trio made or received a mobile call after 18.59 that's the prosecution case dead.

Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #344 on: February 11, 2019, 01:56:24 PM »
Here's Liz Fletcher who appears to have been Tate's g/f at the time albeit a Clare was to accompany him on the jolly up in Romford.  Liz assisted with the cash refund for the dodgy cannabis.

At the end of the vid the narrator holds up part of a WS from a Gi Bradley Garwood brother of Donna Garwood who it seems was one of Tucker's girlfriends.  Anna was due to accompany Tucker on the jolly up in Romford and left numerous voice mail messages.  Her and Tucker didn't assist with the cash refund for the dodgy cannabis as it was his birthday and she had booked a hotel.  Donna Garwood assissted with the cash refund for the dodgy cannabis

Donna Garwood's name appears in the tel schedules as having a landline in her name which was used to make/receive calls from Tate/Tucker along with numerous 'alarm calls'.  This landline number was also the number quoted in a tel message from Anna on Tucker's mobile.  What was going on at this residence? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbU9u5E8RVc

Charming messages!
Setting the pussy among the pigeons!