Documentaries & Articles for Discussion

[Anna]

The destruction of evidence at the "crime scene" happened as much if not MORE by the Mccanns and friends

Source: Attorney General's summary

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

section G

Contaminated "crime scene"

edited to add link

Several people searched the apartment from OC manager/staff as well as the McCanns friends and of course, the parents.
 However the GNR did not close the area off and secure the crime scene, as they also searched cupboards, wardrobes etc.
Do you think the parents and friends would have, protecting the crime scene, uppermost on their minds at that time?

J.B..
 Deputy Specialist J. B. arrived about 00.40/00.50.
 When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station.

 He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.

 He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called S.B..

 He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.

 It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection.

 At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.

 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

[mercury]

Anna, my point was about the destruction or not of potential evidence and it being wholly blamed on the police...we know this is untrue (as evidenced by the public prosecutors report and also by the tapas 9)and we also know that despite the Mccanns "knowing" it was a crime scene allowed their friends to meddle with the shutters, THE point of entry or exit or otherwise for their abductor

[Alice Purjorick]

More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.
The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.

[Brietta]

Anna, my point was about the destruction or not of potential evidence and it being wholly blamed on the police...we know this is untrue (as evidenced by the public prosecutors report and also by the tapas 9)and we also know that despite the Mccanns "knowing" it was a crime scene allowed their friends to meddle with the shutters, THE point of entry or exit or otherwise for their abductor

The police are the professionals.  Whether or not they believed Madeleine had wandered on her own and they expected her to return or to be found they should have taken appropriate action to prepare for all eventualities and that was to preserve whatever evidence remained on their arrival.

[Brietta]

More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.
The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.

Then what did they think it was? IYO of course.

[Carana]

More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.
The excuse they were know nothing Portuguese pretendy cops don't cut it I am afraid.

Experienced in what? A CSI manual was only introduced in May 2009.



source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009
Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.

No online link to provide for the moment.

[Brietta]

Experienced in what? A CSI manual was only introduced in May 2009.



source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009
Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.

No online link to provide for the moment.

I think it possible that the failings apparent in Madeleine McCann's case were such that it may have led to the realisation that courses of this kind had to be introduced.

[Carana]

I think it possible that the failings apparent in Madeleine McCann's case were such that it may have led to the realisation that courses of this kind had to be introduced.

I really think that PT judicial / police have made efforts to move forward, but between dealing with a general overhaul, including change management and a recession, it hasn't been easy.

I wish them all the best.


PS: Carlos Farinha is (or was at the time of this article dated 11/07/2014), head of the Police Scientifc Lab). AFAIK, this isn't the same entity as the INML. What he's saying seems to correspond to the Machado / Santos studies on public perception of CSI versus reality.

http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/policia-cientifica-da-pj-o-csi-portugues-recebe-2000-pedidos-de-pericias-por-mes-1662445

[Brietta]

I really think that PT judicial / police have made efforts to move forward, but between dealing with a general overhaul, including change management and a recession, it hasn't been easy.

I wish them all the best.


PS: Carlos Farinha is (or was at the time of this article dated 11/07/2014), head of the Police Scientifc Lab). AFAIK, this isn't the same entity as the INML. What he's saying seems to correspond to the Machado / Santos studies on public perception of CSI versus reality.

http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/policia-cientifica-da-pj-o-csi-portugues-recebe-2000-pedidos-de-pericias-por-mes-1662445

It really doesn't matter when you read through the files something new always turns up.  They did a monumental amount of information gathering and I think they could probably have cracked the case if it had all been utilised properly.
I think the information overload was all too much for EXCELL to cope with.

They were seriously let down by things outwith their control; language and custom ~ lack of CCTV ~ but the clincher imo was a leadership devoid of experience or training in cases of this kind and lacking a grain of common sense.
One wonders what kind of job Joao Carlos  might have made had he been in charge.

I too wish them all the best in the upheavals which have been going on ... I think they are doing excellent work in the face of many difficulties.

[Alice Purjorick]

Then what did they think it was? IYO of course.

I remain content to accept what experienced officers said in their statements. Google Officer Roques deposition linked to McCann Files and read it for yourself.

[Alice Purjorick]

Experienced in what? A CSI manual was only introduced in May 2009.



source: Diário de Notícias, 20.05.2009
Today, at the Polícia Judiciária’s School, in Lisbon, a crime scene practises manual is launched, establishing rules on how to enter, how to mark the investigators’ passage, how to photograph and/or draw a crime scene, among other procedures. “The potentialities in the collection of a certain type of residues are incommensurably different today from what they were years ago”, said Carlos Farinha, according to whom “nowadays the level of collection of elements on location is scarily superior”. Hence, he adds, the need to “reorganise and think about the manner to proceed on a crime scene”.

No online link to provide for the moment.

Red bit: experienced at being policemen and all that derives from that.
Blue bit: your point being?

[Carana]

Red bit: experienced at being policemen and all that derives from that.
Blue bit: your point being?

I was replying your comment: More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.

It's not clear what the two officers were "experienced" in concerning a crime scene as a guidance manual didn't exist at the time... and one was only initially launched two years later.

It may be easy to equate means / training / experience to what may be considered (or imagined) to be standard in other countries, but this doesn't appear to have been the situation in PT at the time.

[jassi]

I was replying your comment: More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.

It's not clear what the two officers were "experienced" in concerning a crime scene as a guidance manual didn't exist at the time... and one was only initially launched two years later.

It may be easy to equate means / training / experience to what may be considered (or imagined) to be standard in other countries, but this doesn't appear to have been the situation in PT at the time.

Would there have been local guidelines in place?

[Alice Purjorick]

I was replying your comment: More curious is that two experienced officers the first on the scene (Officer Roque and his partner) did not believe it was a crime scene.

It's not clear what the two officers were "experienced" in concerning a crime scene as a guidance manual didn't exist at the time... and one was only initially launched two years later.

Extending that logic then: until the manual was written nothing was a crime scene, even it was, because it could not be identified as such in accordance with the manual which was yet to be written. Furthermore if the manual was needed to identify a crime scene how did the manual writer know what a crime scene looked like before he wrote the manual?
I'll go with Roques and his mate knowing what they were looking at.

I guess that makes sense somewhere.

[Carana]

Would there have been local guidelines in place?

Erm... I think I'll avoid commenting on what unofficial "local guidelines" may still have been back then...