Author Topic: About drawback or backspatter.  (Read 98572 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2015, 01:11:46 PM »
Jeremy was wrong about them being illegal in the UK and also wrong about how it works it has nothing to do with the sonic crack of the bullets.  The gases cause sound waves when they hit open air. The higher the pressure the louder the sound will be, the lower the pressure of the gases coming out the lower the noise it makes.

The bullets make their own sonic crack unless the bullets are subsonic as was the case with the ones at WHF.

The Eaton's mainly sold shotguns.  He went to them with his desires for a semi-auto shotgun.  They said they are unsporting so they didn't have access to them and would not be able to help him.  So he turned to someone else for a semi-auto but the only semi-auto Nevill would buy was the 22.

I would have thought the Eatons would have been able to procure the semi-auto, silencer and ammo at trade rather than retail? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2015, 01:36:36 PM »
The OS is writing absolute s***, as usual ... of all the people to ask about firearms they chose the one who killed his family!  If, after thirty years in jail "fighting" his case JB doesn't know how a moderator works and whether they're illegal or not, then there's no hope.

From Wikipedia...

In the United Kingdom, sales of suppressors fall into four categories of use. For replica and air guns, the purchase of a suppressor requires no license and in most cases, no identification requirement. For shotguns, these will probably require the presentation of the buyer's shotgun certificate but will not be recorded. If the shotgun is classified as a firearm (where capacity exceeds 3 cartridges) the firearm certificate (FAC) will need to show permission for the purchase of a suppressor. For a small- or full-bore rifle, the firearm certificate (FAC) will need to show permission for the purchase of a suppressor and also the firearm for which it is intended. All firearms certificates have the firearm and caliber approved by the police and annotated to the document before a suppressor may be purchased. Police forces usually approve applications for a suppressor for hunting and target shooters, as the risks of litigation for personal injury, especially high-tone deafness resulting from shooting-induced hearing loss, are significant; and noise pollution in general is a problem for shooting sports.



This is the reason I have never discussed his case with him:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg199694#msg199694

He posted in one of his blogs that not having access to the outside world by way of the internet and books is a real handicap in being able to research his case:

http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2014-12-23T13:47:00Z
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2015, 01:55:00 PM »
This is the reason I have never discussed his case with him:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg199694#msg199694

He posted in one of his blogs that not having access to the outside world by way of the internet and books is a real handicap in being able to research his case:

http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2014-12-23T13:47:00Z
He's had access over recent years to any information required via his lawyers and support team. If they want to describe exactly how a moderator works then why not consult a reliable source?... it's very amateurish to do otherwise.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2015, 01:58:04 PM »
He's had access over recent years to any information required via his lawyers and support team. If they want to describe exactly how a moderator works then why not consult a reliable source?... it's very amateurish to do otherwise.

I guess they wrongly assumed Malcolm Fletcher was a reliable source? 

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2015, 02:00:20 PM »
I don't recall you explaining to either forum how silencers work prior to my links and explanation a few days ago?  If I'm wrong then please retrieve your post confirming otherwise?  You wouldn't by any chance be attempting to steal my thunder?  ?>)()<

NB and JB purchased the semi-auto rifle during Nov 1984.  JB approached PE re a semi-auto shotgun during July 1985.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2169

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2171

It's all hypocritical as shooters often have someone on hand re-loading another shooter during shoots.
Mmmm... a powerful five-shot 12 bore shotgun.  Now let's think... one for each member of the family.  Yep, that figures... he obviously thought his toy Anschutz wasn't powerful enough for the job.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2015, 02:51:12 PM »
Mmmm... a powerful five-shot 12 bore shotgun.  Now let's think... one for each member of the family.  Yep, that figures... he obviously thought his toy Anschutz wasn't powerful enough for the job.

Blimey Myster that sounds like the stuff of a not so good novel!  Akin to the criticism Poldark received after its Sun eve premiere.  No complaints from me with Aidan Turner featuring  8**8:/:
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2015, 04:14:29 PM »
A witness is called by a specific party with the intention of having that witness provide a specific piece of testimony significant to what the side calling the witness wants to argue.   

The other side gets to cross examine the witness but it has to be about something related to their testimony.  If you want to ask them questions about things they didn't talk about in their testimony in chief you have to recall them to the stand when it is your turn to go.

All witnesses are supposed to tell the truth.  You know in advance generally what the prosecution witnesses are going to say.  If they are going to say something harmful you try to find your own witness to rebut them.  If you can't then on cross you try to ask questions that guts their testimony to the best extent you can.  If there is something that wasn't covered by their testimony and that you could not discuss on cross but you want it in the record you can call them to the stand when it is the turn of the defense.

Ok Scip so here's the 2002 appeal doc which covers the salient points at trial and everything pertaining to 2002 appeal.  I can only see mention of Malcolm Fletcher with regard to ballistics/firearms:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Who was Malcolm Fletcher representing: both, defence or prosecution?  I'm unable to find any mention anywhere of any other ballistics/firearms expert other than Major Mead (for defence) who appears to have played a minor role in this whole sorry saga and I haven't seen him mentioned in any official documents.

He was not saying any and all contact wounds result in drawback.  He was talking about the wound to the neck under the exact circumstances of this case (there was a nearby wound that caused hemorrhaging inside thus her neck was a cavity full of blood and thus ideal for backspatter (drawback in the case of a contact wound).  It was an individualized assessment that such would would result in drawback.  Contact wounds CAN result in drawback they don't always- location of the wound plays a major role.  22 calibers RARELY result in backspatter (or in the case of contact shots drawback) when the location of the shot is the head.  Coroners very rarely find spatter/drawback fro 22 caliber head wounds. Experiments use various dummies not real heads and the dummies don't react the same way real human heads do.  So while testing produces spatter from .22 calibers in the real world environment it is rare.

The experts disagreed with whether they were contact shots of not to his head but even if they were drawback would not be that likely let alone a sure thing.

You don't see to want to face that each circumstance requires an individualized look at all the variables that come into play you can't just take a general rule and apply it across the board to all circumstances.

There would still be a chance of drawback if the fatal shot had been the only one fired but it would not have been a sure thing.  The reason it was a sure thing is because of the hemorrhaging in her neck from the first shot.  The two words a lawyer used most in response to question are "it depends" which means the answer is contingent upon the specific circumstances there is no rule that applies to all situations and the same it true for science.  You have to look at the exact circumstances.

Malcolm Fletcher was not qualified to comment on SC's biology with regard to draw-back that fell to Dr Vanezis (the pathologist) and Mark Hayward (the biologist).  I am unable to find any OFFICIAL document stating that SC's wounds and the potential for draw-back were in any way connected to haemorrhaging?  Please supply.

If haemorrhaging was the critical factor then why did Malcolm Fletcher and Glynis Howard bother going to the trouble of placing themselves in a similar position to SC in an attempt to determine whether or not draw-back was possible based on whether SC could reach the trigger?  And make a big deal about breaking their nails?

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2015, 09:49:33 PM »
I don't recall you explaining to either forum how silencers work prior to my links and explanation a few days ago?  If I'm wrong then please retrieve your post confirming otherwise?  You wouldn't by any chance be attempting to steal my thunder?  ?>)()<

NB and JB purchased the semi-auto rifle during Nov 1984.  JB approached PE re a semi-auto shotgun during July 1985.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2169

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2171

It's all hypocritical as shooters often have someone on hand re-loading another shooter during shoots.

I have posted many times that Jeremy was wrong in what he asserted about the moderator. I also noted though that it MIGHT have been intentional misrepresentation because he was suggesting there was no value in using the moderator to make it look like it wasn't used.

That's even worse that it was only a month before the murders that he wanted to buy a semi-auto shotgun...

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2015, 10:04:41 PM »
Ok Scip so here's the 2002 appeal doc which covers the salient points at trial and everything pertaining to 2002 appeal.  I can only see mention of Malcolm Fletcher with regard to ballistics/firearms:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

Who was Malcolm Fletcher representing: both, defence or prosecution?  I'm unable to find any mention anywhere of any other ballistics/firearms expert other than Major Mead (for defence) who appears to have played a minor role in this whole sorry saga and I haven't seen him mentioned in any official documents.

Fletcher was a prosecution witness. He worked in the crime lab and was called by the prosecution to testify, he was simply cross examined by the defense.


Malcolm Fletcher was not qualified to comment on SC's biology with regard to draw-back that fell to Dr Vanezis (the pathologist) and Mark Hayward (the biologist).  I am unable to find any OFFICIAL document stating that SC's wounds and the potential for draw-back were in any way connected to haemorrhaging?  Please supply.

If haemorrhaging was the critical factor then why did Malcolm Fletcher and Glynis Howard bother going to the trouble of placing themselves in a similar position to SC in an attempt to determine whether or not draw-back was possible based on whether SC could reach the trigger?  And make a big deal about breaking their nails?

The only documents publicly available discuss the OVERALL testimony that a wound in THAT location would result in drawback.  I am providing you with WHY that would be the case. The defense didn't question why that is the case in court. Their own experts didn't refute it so there was no point in questioning it.  If you bothered to read the 3 different things that cause backspatter/drawback which I already posted for you then you would already see the issue of a blood filled cavity being hit.  You can read all about temporary cavities and blood filled cavities and back spatter. It is not limited to contact wounds it happens regardless so there is plenty out there on the subject. Backspatter was the province of the firearms expert.

The testing to see in what positions  the woman could activate the trigger had nothing to do with whether drawback would occur. It was to point out that the only way she could fire the gun was if she pushed the trigger with her finger tip but her nail was int he way and would have been damaged in the process.

The trigger was too far to use her thumb to pull the trigger. She had to push the trigger as you would push a button on a phone or a typewriter key with the tip of your finger. Doing that damaged her nails though because her nails extended past her finger tips.   

She didn't have damaged fingers and was seated when shot not lying down anyway so this hurts the claims Sheila shot herself.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2015, 12:31:06 PM »
I have posted many times that Jeremy was wrong in what he asserted about the moderator. I also noted though that it MIGHT have been intentional misrepresentation because he was suggesting there was no value in using the moderator to make it look like it wasn't used.

That's even worse that it was only a month before the murders that he wanted to buy a semi-auto shotgun...

Imo JB is wrong in many things he asserts about his case but not because he's guilty because he has been incarcerated for almost 30 years, is largely dependent on others and has no access to proper resources to manage his case, especially with regard to accessing and managing material and carrying out research. 

Are you able to make available JB's assertions re the moderator/silencer with regard to its purpose and how it works please?  I am only able to find the following and this is dated 26th January 2015 (a little under 7 weeks ago).

http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/silencer

He wanted to purchase a semi-auto to shoot with the landlord of his local pub - The Chequers.  This was all checked out by EP. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2015, 01:35:34 PM »
Fletcher was a prosecution witness. He worked in the crime lab and was called by the prosecution to testify, he was simply cross examined by the defense.

So in other words the defence did not instruct their own expert witness.  It is highly unlikely that the likes of Paul Terezon (solicitor from Kingsley Napley) Geoffrey Rivlin QC and the late Edmund Lawson QC were up to cross examining Malcolm Fletcher about the mechanics of draw-back.  Or Justice Drake was going to point them in the right direction.  Lol you couldn't make it up.


The only documents publicly available discuss the OVERALL testimony that a wound in THAT location would result in drawback.  I am providing you with WHY that would be the case. The defense didn't question why that is the case in court. Their own experts didn't refute it so there was no point in questioning it.  If you bothered to read the 3 different things that cause backspatter/drawback which I already posted for you then you would already see the issue of a blood filled cavity being hit.  You can read all about temporary cavities and blood filled cavities and back spatter. It is not limited to contact wounds it happens regardless so there is plenty out there on the subject. Backspatter was the province of the firearms expert.

The testing to see in what positions  the woman could activate the trigger had nothing to do with whether drawback would occur. It was to point out that the only way she could fire the gun was if she pushed the trigger with her finger tip but her nail was int he way and would have been damaged in the process.

The trigger was too far to use her thumb to pull the trigger. She had to push the trigger as you would push a button on a phone or a typewriter key with the tip of your finger. Doing that damaged her nails though because her nails extended past her finger tips.   

She didn't have damaged fingers and was seated when shot not lying down anyway so this hurts the claims Sheila shot herself.

How quaint, a typewriter key.  Last time I heard mention of a typewriter was in the following:

"The anonymous letter - written with a typewriter and posted in Essex last month - warns:"

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/524489/Mass-killer-Jeremy-Bamber-s-threat-to-Scots-author-Harrison

You really have a cheek!  YOU are providing me with reasons WHY draw-back would occur with SC's wound and yet if I  provide YOU with reasons WHY SC is the likely perpetrator from a psychological perspective YOU rubbish my claims and pour scorn on me that I claim to know more than SC's psychiatrist! 

I've found my own source re:

- Subcutaneous gas effect

- Temporary Cavity

- Tail Splashing

As you will see the source is female and young because I am sick to the teeth of hearing from middle-aged elderly males, who in the main have proved to be nothing other than incompetent:

- Justice Drake
- Geoffrey Rivlin QC
- Edmund Lawson QC
- Paul Terzeon
- Maclolm Fletcher
- Dr Ferguson

https://ourarchive.otago.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10523/393/Gemma%20Radford%20MSc%20thesis%20examinedA.pdf?sequence=1

As you will see the upshot from Gemma Radford's thesis is that back spatter/draw back is dependent on the following:

- Anatomical location - head
- Weapon - large calibre
- Bullet - high velocity

None of the above are relevant to SC. 

The anatomical location, weapon and bullets used at WHF:

- Anatomical location - SC - chin and neck.  (DC - head)
- Weapon - small calibre
- Bullet - low velocity

No doubt you will trash my post and Gemma Radford's thesis.  I am not going round the houses with you Skip.  Tests will be carried out.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear with regard to Malcolm Fletcher and Glynis Howard's tests but what I was attempting to say is that they did not carry out any firearms testing rather they attempted to rule out draw-back with SC committing suicide on the basis of whether or not SC could reach the trigger.  Which is all a nonsense as it is obvious to most that SC could not have shot herself once with the silencer fitted removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before shooting herself fatally.

It should be obvious to everyone that Macolm Fletcher was not a competent expert witness with regard to ballistics and firearms.  His job title was Senior Scientific Officer:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=271.0;attach=871

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #101 on: March 16, 2015, 04:10:51 AM »
So in other words the defence did not instruct their own expert witness.  It is highly unlikely that the likes of Paul Terezon (solicitor from Kingsley Napley) Geoffrey Rivlin QC and the late Edmund Lawson QC were up to cross examining Malcolm Fletcher about the mechanics of draw-back.  Or Justice Drake was going to point them in the right direction.  Lol you couldn't make it up.

Fletcher's testimony on this issue is here but you won't like because it confirms the things I said while refuting things you claimed, in particualr talking about the importance of the lcoation of a wound with respect to whether drawback or backspatter will occur and even talks about how the wound would have caused back spatter had the gun been farther away when fired:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3322.msg130425.html#msg130425


 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #102 on: March 16, 2015, 12:07:43 PM »
Fletcher's testimony on this issue is here but you won't like because it confirms the things I said while refuting things you claimed, in particualr talking about the importance of the lcoation of a wound with respect to whether drawback or backspatter will occur and even talks about how the wound would have caused back spatter had the gun been farther away when fired:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3322.msg130425.html#msg130425

I am not a member of The Jeremy Forum and therefore unable to access the link to confirm it supports your claims or refutes mine.  However as I have previously stated tests will be carried out to confirm whether or not the blood 'found' in the silencer was there as a result of draw-back as the jury were told. 

- To date tests by way of a reconstruction have not been carried out

- Malcolm Fletcher was a general scientific officer as per his job title not a ballistics/firearms expert:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=271.0;attach=871

- By Malcolm Fletcher's own admission the mechanism of draw-back was complicated and not then [trial] fully appreciated  8(0(*

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #103 on: March 16, 2015, 05:59:09 PM »
You really have a cheek!  YOU are providing me with reasons WHY draw-back would occur with SC's wound and yet if I  provide YOU with reasons WHY SC is the likely perpetrator from a psychological perspective YOU rubbish my claims and pour scorn on me that I claim to know more than SC's psychiatrist!

1) Your claims are rubbish.  You are in no position to assess Sheila's mental health.  You didn't interview her and have no access to her medical reports wher eothers interviewed her.  All you know is the little bit that Ferguson provided and you claim he was wrong and that you know better than him.  It is laughable.

2) Studying her mental health is worthless. Jeremy was convicted based upon physical evidence that established Sheila didn't commit the crimes.  Only if that can be refuted could her mentla health have any relevance. 

I could hate someone and say I want them dead but if there is physical evidence proving I can't have killed them then that means I didn't do it.  My mental state fo mind means nothing.  You don't seem to appreciate how evidence works.

3) Drawback and back spatter are scientific concepts directly relevant to the issues at hand and they can be discussed competently by discussing the relevant factors that result in backspatter. I have discussed such competently while you have simply twisted the few things you found to pretend that back spatter owuld not occur though you didn't analyze all the relevant issues and your sources didn't stand for the propositions you asserted.  You took a source that said moderators, among other things, cna impact drawback.  It didn't explain how and what affect such could have.  You then decided all on your own this means drawback can't occur when a moderator is used though there are documented cases of drawback occurring in moderators.

You are not conducting an objective inquiry but rather just searched for something that proves what you wish were the case, then when you faile dot find anything to support your preferred position you simply pretended your source asserted such when it didn't.

Objectivity requires being honest about what claims mean as opposed to having an agenda and pretending this support it.   


I've found my own source re:

- Subcutaneous gas effect

- Temporary Cavity

- Tail Splashing

As you will see the source is female and young because I am sick to the teeth of hearing from middle-aged elderly males, who in the main have proved to be nothing other than incompetent:

- Justice Drake
- Geoffrey Rivlin QC
- Edmund Lawson QC
- Paul Terzeon
- Maclolm Fletcher
- Dr Ferguson

https://ourarchive.otago.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10523/393/Gemma%20Radford%20MSc%20thesis%20examinedA.pdf?sequence=1

As you will see the upshot from Gemma Radford's thesis is that back spatter/draw back is dependent on the following:

- Anatomical location - head
- Weapon - large calibre
- Bullet - high velocity

None of the above are relevant to SC. 

The anatomical location, weapon and bullets used at WHF:

- Anatomical location - SC - chin and neck.  (DC - head)
- Weapon - small calibre
- Bullet - low velocity

No doubt you will trash my post and Gemma Radford's thesis.  I am not going round the houses with you Skip.  Tests will be carried out.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear with regard to Malcolm Fletcher and Glynis Howard's tests but what I was attempting to say is that they did not carry out any firearms testing rather they attempted to rule out draw-back with SC committing suicide on the basis of whether or not SC could reach the trigger.  Which is all a nonsense as it is obvious to most that SC could not have shot herself once with the silencer fitted removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before shooting herself fatally.

It should be obvious to everyone that Macolm Fletcher was not a competent expert witness with regard to ballistics and firearms.  His job title was Senior Scientific Officer:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=271.0;attach=871

Fletcher was an expert in ballistics unlike you and unlike your source who was merely a student doing a thesis paper.

All the student did was regurgitate various things not to make any real assessments.

The only line in her thesis that you care about is this one:

"This is one of the main reasons why backspatter usually only occurs in gunshot wounds of the head, as the inelastic nature of the brain and its containment within the skull means it is particularly susceptible
to temporary cavitation"

This is not evidence that backsaptter only occurs in head shots.  The claim it usually only happens in head shots is simply an unsupported allegation.  She never attempts to offer any evidence to substantiate it.  Her main point was simply that the brain/skull are particularly susceptible to temporary cavitaiton.  It doesn't assert let alone prove that no other areas of the body are susceptible.  I posted a source that noted the heart is an ideal location for cavitation.  I also noted sources duscussing how cavitation is enabled when there was a previous wound nearby because the previous wound helps provide a source of blood to fill a cavity.

You do what you always do ignore all the relevant factors and inquiry trying to find just a sentence that you can try to use to PRETEND that backsaptter owuld not occur.  You have an agenda and that agenda is to find a way to pretend back spatter woudl not occur so you can then go back to your nonsense psychology analysis of Sheila.

Your efforts fall flat and demosntrate both your bias and your inability to actually find any sources to establish Fletcher's claims to be wrong.

Note that even though in the past your own sources state it is rare to find tissue you made up that tissue would have to be present for it to be back spatter. 

This is from the source you just posted:

"The term backspatter can be used to describe any tissue which is ejected from a gunshot entrance wound, such as skin, subcutaneous tissue, brain matter or bone. However, blood has been the main focus of backspatter research in the literature, possibly because it is often the predominant substance that is ejected and is usually visible with the naked eye. Therefore, for the purposes of this review, the term backspatter will be used in reference to blood only unless otherwise stated."

Your source stated blood it the predominant substance ejected and that other tissue needs to be seen using a microscope.  Until DNA testing such tiny tissue was menaingless so no reaosn to even bother noting it.  LCN testing in particular makes such tissue more significant though you own sources admit other tissue is not always found it only is found occasionally.  Blood is the ain thing found and in a quantity that was able to actually be tested and used for some purpose hence why it was and even today still is the main focus.

Your own source also admitted there is no suitable testing dummy for parts of the body other than the head.  That is why the main focus of spatter testing is the head.     
 



   
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 07:12:59 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #104 on: March 16, 2015, 06:54:54 PM »
I am not a member of The Jeremy Forum and therefore unable to access the link to confirm it supports your claims or refutes mine.
 

Judge Drake: I think I have Nicholas Caffell, the muzzle was in contact with the skin.  You would have expected to find blood from Nicholas inside the sound moderator if used, or the barrel of the rifle if not?

Fletcher: There is one rider I can add.  You have to take into account the position of the actual wounds themselves, and the amount of blood available at those particular points, that could come out.

Judge Drake:  That is a very important qualification.  I was going to put to you how do you account for the fact that no one has found traces of Nicholas’s blood in the sound moderator or in the barrel of the gun.

Fletcher: It could be due purely to that rider sir, to the availability.

Judge Drake: So you said a moment ago if the muzzle or sound moderator which was in contact, you think would have certainly have got blood in the sound moderator, but you qualify that by now saying dependent upon the wound?

Fletcher: Well the amount inside the muzzle would depend on the amount of blood available to come back out of the wound, depending where the wound was.



Arlidge:  What did that evidence indicate to you?  We have also heard the blood was in there and it bore the same grouping as Sheila Caffell’s.  The expert looked at that also dealt with this and he said there was a remote possibility it could have been a mix of June and Ralph Bambers’.

Fletcher: Yes

Arlidge: What do you say from what you see about the contact wound, and what you hear about the blood sample?

Fletcher:  My opinion on this is that the blood in the sound moderator was due to the contact shot o the neck of Sheila Caffell.  The mechanism whereby the blood gets in there is quite complicated, and it is probably not fully appreciated yet but simply the expanding gas when the bullet goes out of the muzzle, under normal circumstances distributes and expands in the atmosphere, but with a contact shot where the muzzle of the gun, whether it be a sound moderator, muzzle or whatever, is pressed into contact with, in this particular case, the skin, then the expanding gas follows the bullet into the wound, and it will expand in whatever direction it is easiest for it to take.  It is quite well known that you will get a back pressure fro this expanding gas, coming back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue.  It will be that effect which blasts the blood and the tissue back into the gun, into the sound moderator.

Arlidge:  If it is not in contact with the skin, but is say a short way apart form the skin, can one get the same effect or not?

Fletcher: I think if you have got very close proximity, we are talking something like a illimeter distance between the skin and the front of the sound moderator, you could still get that effect.  But anything greater than that, no.

Judge Drake: A millimeter is a tiny tiny distance.

Fletcher: It is yes, my lord.

Arlidge: Because if it is in contact with the skin seen the size of the hole at the end of the moderator.  If it goes back in the moderator it has to get through that small hole?

Fletcher: Yes

Arlidge: If the moderator is backed from the skin at all, if there was any blood that came out would you expect to see a lot on the outside? 

Fletcher: If we are talking about the same particular wound at a slightly greater range, yes I would.

Judge Drake:  I have not followed that.

Fletcher: If the wound we are interested in, the contact wound here.  If the muzzle of the gun had in fact been a short distance away form the skin the amount of blood coming out, it would have sprayed around the front end of the moderator.  I would have expected more blood around the outside.

Judge Drake: SO if it is in contact you may get it inside the moderator? 

Fletcher: You would get it inside the moderator.  It is virtually certain my lord.  There is a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight.

Judge Drake: A little away you would expect it to get on the outside?

Fletcher: Indeed yes.

------------------------------------------------

So he was testifying that the location of the wound and availablity of blood in the area of the wound are why backspatter wound occur and if the wound was a contact wound it would go in the weapon whereas if not it woudl go outside of the weapon.  He was never asked to specifically discuss the amount of blood available and elasticity of skin etc that goes into the detialed inquiry.  But I posted the kinds of things tha tatter including a wound nearby.  The nearby wound caused hemmorhaging inside Sheila's neck creating the ideal conditions for teproary cavitation.

Note how I always discuss specifics while you keep trying to stick with broad rules that don't aplly such as the made up rule that only head shots result in back spatter so you can try to pretend drawback can't occur with a neck wound.

You claim you want to have more in depth knowledge but when such detailed issues are pointed out, you ignore them because they go against your agenda.

However as I have previously stated tests will be carried out to confirm whether or not the blood 'found' in the silencer was there as a result of draw-back as the jury were told. 

What testing is being done?


There is no testing going on where they are constructing a fake neck and are trying to simulate conditions roughly similar to the conditions inside her neck to see if drawback can occur.

The only testing that the defense contemplated it to test what kind of muzzle impressions are made when the gun is fired with/without the moderator at hard contact range and then to try to see if the photos evidence a muzzle impression like that made by the rifle sans moderator.

This testing is a waste of time because the shot was a soft contact shot which left no muzzle impression.  There is nothing in the photos that can be established as a muzzle impression.  The testing thus stands no chance of success at all.

The only thing the defense can do at this point is to have medical experts assess whether it would be impossible for drawback occur in the lcoation in question under the conditions in question.  The defense could find no experts to assess such which is why they had none testify at trial or on appeal.  At this point if they were to find one as most they could submit such opinion in support of an applciaiton for clemency because it would not constitute new evidence unless the science used by the person were new science.



   
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 02:15:45 PM by John »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli