Author Topic: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?  (Read 65139 times)

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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2015, 06:18:25 PM »
Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread  8(>((
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later  *&*%£
Jeez.
Is there anything you don't know everything about?

Offline Brietta

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2015, 06:56:10 PM »
Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread  8(>((
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later  *&*%£
Jeez.

Very informative ... so what is your opinion on the likelihood that Madeleine could have fallen into one ... perhaps the one mentioned in Carana's post about Rex Morgan's statement of seeing an uncovered drain in the vicinity of 5A.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Carana

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2015, 08:38:08 PM »
I don't see how a child could have disappeared in the type shown in Heri's photo.

Little Mari Luz was thrown into one, however, presumably of a different type.



Offline Anna

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2015, 09:15:29 PM »
I don't see how a child could have disappeared in the type shown in Heri's photo.

Little Mari Luz was thrown into one, however, presumably of a different type.

They must have some sort of sewer drains. The police in June last year were checking out the sewers with optic fibre cameras. Where were they?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-search-police-look-3646174
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:31:31 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2015, 09:39:23 PM »
Is there anything you don't know everything about?

Only the stuff I know nothing about  8(>((
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2015, 09:54:28 PM »
Very informative ... so what is your opinion on the likelihood that Madeleine could have fallen into one ... perhaps the one mentioned in Carana's post about Rex Morgan's statement of seeing an uncovered drain in the vicinity of 5A.
God knows.
If some prat left a cover off the MH with no barricades and hazard tapes then any one could fall in it.
If she fell in she would possibly stay in the MH until found. The drain would need to be a minimum 450 diameter for her to crawl down or be washed down in a storm.
You should be able to work out a plan from that.

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2015, 10:01:10 PM »
Id she had fallen down a drain nearby...the cover would be off and she would have been found....surely

Offline Anna

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2015, 10:12:22 PM »
Id she had fallen down a drain nearby...the cover would be off and she would have been found....surely

Not if it was one of those, which I think drain straight down to a stream over and under ground, which carries it to the tunnels that come out by the sea......... I hope I got that right.



http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2015, 10:21:43 PM »
Not if it was one of those, which I think drain straight down to a stream over and under ground, which carries it to the tunnels that come out by the sea......... I hope I got that right.



http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm

Surely these would have been searched in the first days

Offline Anna

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2015, 10:29:09 PM »
Surely these would have been searched in the first days

Well................................
And if it does empty straight into a stream, it would be empty.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 10:54:44 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2015, 11:22:38 PM »
Open trenches on 3 may, as photos.... after they had been filled. I apologise, if this has already been posted.


CONSTRUCTION WORKER 31 MAY 07


External Inquiry Report

Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L

Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva

Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.

Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).

Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).

Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.

With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.

But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation” process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.

We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were
employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.

They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.

Signed


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2015, 02:15:46 PM »
Absolutely, but in reality they can be explained if you start digging deep enough. Aisling went down a manhole so the real question should be, who opened it and left it in such a dangerous state that a small child could slide into it?   As has been seen in the Symes case, cameras and all sorts of fancy technical equipment are not always successful.  There is no substitute for a digger and a shovel.

I'm 4 pages behind, so this may have been covered.

The reason I am dubious of natural causes is that if it was, then either a two-year old pulled most of the cover shut after she went in, or another party must have nearly replaced it later.

I don't know how the police were so insistent on the pipe, unless someone had provided evidence along the lines of - well I found this cover open and it was dangerous so I (part) replaced it.

Kindly come out to Luz and suggest to the populace that the whole drainage laid in 2007 needs to be dug up again.  Or, given that the startled robber theory is bandied about, and any manhole would do, the entire town drains need to come up.  Popular here with the public?  I think not.  Popular with the UK taxpayer?  I think not.

Personally, I wish that instead of trying to dig up the mound they had investigated every manhole/drain in Luz.  At least then some progress would have been made.

A final note on this.  I can see nothing to suggest that SY in 2014 deployed the dogs near the manholes.  I assume (ouch) this means that they think the dogs are of no use in this respect.

Barring dogs, and preferring not to take up the digger option, I cannot see that is hard to put a ROV with a camera through more or less the whole system.
What's up, old man?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2015, 02:25:37 PM »
Open the window herself did she?
She had 3 options, so already I cannot say what she actually did do, and what she did not.

She was nearly 4, and according to UK figures, unlikely to be less than a metre tall or to weigh less than 12kg.  Both of these are lower figures for 'runts'.  (Full details at ShiningInLuz.)  She therefore had the physical capability to open the shutter and the window and to climb through.

Option 2 - she went out via the front door.

Option 3 - she went out via the patio doors.

The reason for an open window in options 2 and 3 have nothing to do with Aisling Symes case, so if you wish to discuss these further, please point me at an appropriate thread.
What's up, old man?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2015, 02:43:06 PM »
How does one gain access via the drain covers?

It is my understanding a special tool is required to unlock them.

The system next to my house in Luz for both sewage and rainwater drains is the same.

Each end of one diameter on a cover has a recessed lug.  Stick a lever in either end (or both) and the cover lifts.

Would not like to do it with my fingers, but something simple like a knife or a screwdriver is all that is required.

I'm around 10-15 mins from 5A, so it might be different there, though I would expect the same.
What's up, old man?

Offline Anna

Re: Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2015, 05:07:13 PM »
The system next to my house in Luz for both sewage and rainwater drains is the same.

Each end of one diameter on a cover has a recessed lug.  Stick a lever in either end (or both) and the cover lifts.

Would not like to do it with my fingers, but something simple like a knife or a screwdriver is all that is required.

I'm around 10-15 mins from 5A, so it might be different there, though I would expect the same.


It is helpful that you live in the area and can help us out with such things.
It sounds as if the drain covers are similar to our own that can be lifted with several types of tools. I suppose the long handled, tool used by the drain disinfecting men are for ease of use.
Does your system drain directly into the sea via a canal/tunnel or pipes underground and how wide are the pipes.
Sorry for bombarding you with questions, Shininginluz, but I am curious about the plumbing systems.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato