Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?

[Carana]

Agreed.

I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT).  Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two.  Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large. 

The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage.  For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall.  For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.

The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet.  Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.

I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter.  That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.

The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this.  I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side.  If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.

Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things.  1) Getting charged with investigating a crime.  2) Getting run over by traffic.  Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.

Over to Scotland Yard!

Thanks Shining.

A different thought: am I right in thinking that there were quite a few abandoned wells in the area?

[Alice Purjorick]

Agreed.

I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT).  Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two.  Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large. 

The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage.  For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall.  For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.

The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet.  Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.

I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter.  That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.

The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this.  I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side.  If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.

Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things.  1) Getting charged with investigating a crime.  2) Getting run over by traffic.  Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.

Over to Scotland Yard!

In smaller communities the strorm drains will be bigger than the foul.
We do SI units over here in UK Shining! ie millimetres and metres.
 

[Brietta]

The investigation was directed elsewhere to start with.

Are you saying that the initial investigation botched the search of these areas?

The Polícia Judiciária were in charge of these diligences ... the crime scene was allowed to be contaminated ... it was some time before border patrols were alerted ... the refuse bins had been collected and deposited in land fill ... CCTV from nearby hotels had not been collected ...

   ... so that may indeed be the case.

From sources such as Goncalo Amaral's book ... we know that Madeleine McCann's parents and their friends were suspected from the word go ... so indeed the Polícia Judiciária might very well have directed the focus of the investigation away from inspecting the drainage system and concentrating entirely on them.

[slartibartfast]

Are you saying that the initial investigation botched the search of these areas?

The Polícia Judiciária were in charge of these diligences ... the crime scene was allowed to be contaminated ... it was some time before border patrols were alerted ... the refuse bins had been collected and deposited in land fill ... CCTV from nearby hotels had not been collected ...

   ... so that may indeed be the case.

From sources such as Goncalo Amaral's book ... we know that Madeleine McCann's parents and their friends were suspected from the word go ... so indeed the Polícia Judiciária might very well have directed the focus of the investigation away from inspecting the drainage system and concentrating entirely on them.

No I am suggesting that the "witnesses" pointed the police in a particular direction.

[Brietta]

No I am suggesting that the "witnesses" pointed the police in a particular direction.

You mean that the police did not follow the evidence??

[Carana]

No I am suggesting that the "witnesses" pointed the police in a particular direction.

Wouldn't a competent police force pursue several lines of enquiry simultaneously and seek to validate or invalidate potential evidence as the investigation advanced?

[jassi]

Wouldn't a competent police force pursue several lines of enquiry simultaneously and seek to valide or invalidate potential evidence as the investigation advanced?

You might think so, but apparently SY are only investigating an abduction theory - unless I have misunderstood.

[Carana]

You might think so, but apparently SY are only investigating an abduction theory - unless I have misunderstood.

Wouldn't the Met and the PJ have eliminated the "ground under their feet" as a preliminary step prior to officially opening / reopening the investigation? Or do you think that there is an international police conspiracy? If so, for what purpose?

[jassi]

Wouldn't the Met and the PJ have eliminated the "ground under their feet" as a preliminary step prior to officially opening / reopening the investigation? Or do you think that there is an international police conspiracy? If so, for what purpose?

Again, you would think so, but abduction seems to be the only game in town.

[Brietta]

Again, you would think so, but abduction seems to be the only game in town.

That is precisely what the scoping exercise carried out before the case was reopened in Britain and Portugal did; it led to the reopening of Madeleine's case by the PJ and SY; indeed as far as they are concerned and as you affirm ...

abduction is the only game in town.

[Anna]

The investigation was directed elsewhere to start with.

IIRC, the SY team, were checking the sewer pipes on wasteland, but surely those areas that were being worked on near 5A and open 3rd may, would have been checked, by them.
 
They weren't checked by the PJ,  who took the workers word for it, that nothing was there, IIRC.

[ShiningInLuz]

Thanks Shining.

A different thought: am I right in thinking that there were quite a few abandoned wells in the area?

Yes.

Luz is quite, quite artificial.  Until the time of the Ocean Club development it was a very small village relying to an extent on non-modern sources of water i.e. wells rather than piped water.  Well = o poço, and there is a rua do poço and a travessa do poço.  In Madeleine's day there was a restaurant called O Poço, now The Galley.

However, the main wells were for the farms around Luz.  No well = no water = no farm.  Find an abandoned farm and you have probably found an abandoned well.

[ShiningInLuz]

 I wonder if SC checked these pipes that were near 5A and open on 3rd may. I expect they did , as I recall they were using fibre optic cameras on pipes in that area.

SC?  I presume you mean SY.  If you mean SY, they definitely did not check the areas that were dug on 3rd May.  The two areas being worked on then were Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista and Rua Direita.

SY checked the mound, to the west of Rua Primeiro de Maio, and did look down some manholes there.  The two other areas checked were a little way outside of Luz to the east, but I think those were surface checks only.

[ShiningInLuz]

In smaller communities the strorm drains will be bigger than the foul.
We do SI units over here in UK Shining! ie millimetres and metres.
 

Thanks.  I have 3 houses in the UK and I'm a Brit.  A lot of Brits don't understand metric sizes, so I was simply trying to make it clear that the 2007 works should have had a pipe large enough for Madeleine to fit into.  Whether that happened or not is a different matter.

[Alice Purjorick]

Thanks.  I have 3 houses in the UK and I'm a Brit.  A lot of Brits don't understand metric sizes, so I was simply trying to make it clear that the 2007 works should have had a pipe large enough for Madeleine to fit into.  Whether that happened or not is a different matter.

Knowing that a 700/750 pipe can be laid in a 900/950 wide trench could leave your name in the frame!