Author Topic: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?  (Read 50965 times)

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Offline jassi

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #135 on: May 08, 2015, 09:34:35 AM »
Does any of this really matter?

If you want an accurately timed record of events, it might.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Anna

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2015, 11:02:39 AM »
@Anna. I also had assumed the 2259 call from reception was to VS.
However, as G-unit has pointed out, the reception landline records state that the 2259 call was to mobile 962***590, and elsewhere there is a list of employee mobile numbers (partly blanked) which gives VS mobile = 917***416, and LB mobile =962***590, which indicates that the 2259 call was to LB.

Thank you, Pegasus,
                          Are you saying that VS never received a call from reception as he has stated in his witness statement, or that there are records missing?
I am sure that VS would have had a landline, surely. It seems that he was called after the PJ had been called at least a couple of times, therefore after 10.52, according to his statement.
His and the receptionist's statements are a real puzzle!
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2015, 11:08:42 AM »
Makes sense.
Here are mobile records (above) combined:
2251 R to M 14s
2258 M to R txt
2259 R to M txt
2300 M to R txt
2305 M to R txt
2306 R to M 58s
2314 G to K 6s
2317 G to K 29s
2324 R to M txt
Purpose of R to M calls and txts is clear in R rog: "we were just waiting for the Police to come, which you know took ages, I remember ringing M at least once or twice to say you know, look have you rung them, where are they"

So according to Rachael Matt was 'out there' somewhere from 2251. According to Silvia he must have been in or near the apartment at 2300, as was Gerry, because they both followed her to Reception to meet with the GNR. I wonder how far away Matt was at 2324?
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Offline pegasus

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2015, 02:22:09 PM »
Thank you, Pegasus,
                          Are you saying that VS never received a call from reception as he has stated in his witness statement, or that there are records missing?
I am sure that VS would have had a landline, surely. It seems that he was called after the PJ had been called at least a couple of times, therefore after 10.52, according to his statement.
His and the receptionist's statements are a real puzzle!
A simple explanation would be that H used his mobile to call V. I am in no way criticising the OC/MW staff, they did a great job. This is only to calculate how many minutes there were between the tapas-to-apartment rush, and the brief search of the apartment by Costa/Roque. 70 mins? 85 mins?   

Offline pegasus

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2015, 02:55:24 PM »
So according to Rachael Matt was 'out there' somewhere from 2251. According to Silvia he must have been in or near the apartment at 2300, as was Gerry, because they both followed her to Reception to meet with the GNR. I wonder how far away Matt was at 2324?
Yes during the period between first call to GNR, and GNR arriving at reception and later at apartment, people are going back and forth between apartment area / tapas area / main reception, there's nothing suspicious about that, it's not far, and is described in the statements. Re 2324 possibly that is also part of the same waiting for police to get to apartment period? and simply to txt something like "on way to aprtmnt with gnr now"?
So maybe GNR go from reception to apartment at about 2324??? If so that means about 85 minutes?  elapsed between the brief inside search at about 2200 and the brief inside search by gnr officers Costa and Roque.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 02:57:51 PM by pegasus »

Offline Anna

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2015, 03:45:50 PM »
As interesting as this all is, we appear to have slipped off topic.

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?

Can we all now, please try to get back on topic. Thankyou.

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pegasus

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2015, 04:17:53 PM »
I have read the official "missing child procedure" of a UK school. It states that various searches are to be made, then if the child is not found after 45 minutes, the police are to be called.
I imagine that a holiday resort's missing child procedure would be similar - first implement the search plan (which MW/OC did immediately and efficiently) and then if those initial searches fail to find the child, phone police (which MW/OC did).


Offline Anna

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2015, 04:31:29 PM »
I have read the official "missing child procedure" of a UK school. It states that various searches are to be made, then if the child is not found after 45 minutes, the police are to be called.
I imagine that a holiday resort's missing child procedure would be similar - first implement the search plan (which MW/OC did immediately and efficiently) and then if those initial searches fail to find the child, phone police (which MW/OC did).

I believe you are right, Pegasus.
 The parents could not have known, that no one had phoned from reception and it seems that the receptionist was waiting for the OK from his boss.
However this was a very young child and therefore I would have thought there was more of an urgency, it being night time as well.
I don't however know how things are done in Portugal.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pegasus

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2015, 05:16:08 PM »
I believe you are right, Pegasus.
 The parents could not have known, that no one had phoned from reception and it seems that the receptionist was waiting for the OK from his boss.
However this was a very young child and therefore I would have thought there was more of an urgency, it being night time as well.
I don't however know how things are done in Portugal.
Receptionist HL in his statement he says that he heard of the disappearance by phonecall from a member of staff, and immediately phoned GNR. The PT phone records (presumably more accurate than mistranscribed times in statements) tell us this was at about 2240.Is this the same receptionist that a group member had spoken to at about 2210/2215? I don't know. Maybe the language barrier was so great that the message failed completely to be understood? Is it possible that the Portugal Telecom network computer clock was inaccurate? There is not enough information to solve it  8(8-))
BTW any of the group could have simply phoned 112 themselves from any of their 8 mobiles (the 112 call centres in the Algarve have english-speaking operators available IIRC). Maybe the group were assuming that 112 operators would not speak english? I don't know. Is there some reason why 112 doesnt work on a UK mobile?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 05:23:40 PM by pegasus »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2015, 07:02:49 PM »
Receptionist HL in his statement he says that he heard of the disappearance by phonecall from a member of staff, and immediately phoned GNR. The PT phone records (presumably more accurate than mistranscribed times in statements) tell us this was at about 2240.Is this the same receptionist that a group member had spoken to at about 2210/2215? I don't know. Maybe the language barrier was so great that the message failed completely to be understood? Is it possible that the Portugal Telecom network computer clock was inaccurate? There is not enough information to solve it  8(8-))
BTW any of the group could have simply phoned 112 themselves from any of their 8 mobiles (the 112 call centres in the Algarve have english-speaking operators available IIRC). Maybe the group were assuming that 112 operators would not speak english? I don't know. Is there some reason why 112 doesnt work on a UK mobile?

Matt asked the receptionist to phone the police at 2210 but he didn't share Matt's urgency apparently;

'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Offline sadie

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2015, 11:06:39 PM »
Receptionist HL in his statement he says that he heard of the disappearance by phonecall from a member of staff, and immediately phoned GNR. The PT phone records (presumably more accurate than mistranscribed times in statements) tell us this was at about 2240.Is this the same receptionist that a group member had spoken to at about 2210/2215? I don't know. Maybe the language barrier was so great that the message failed completely to be understood? Is it possible that the Portugal Telecom network computer clock was inaccurate? There is not enough information to solve it  8(8-))
BTW any of the group could have simply phoned 112 themselves from any of their 8 mobiles (the 112 call centres in the Algarve have english-speaking operators available IIRC). Maybe the group were assuming that 112 operators would not speak english? I don't know. Is there some reason why 112 doesnt work on a UK mobile?
Pegasus, we have gone over this lots of times.

Maybe nobody knew the number?  My hubby and I are very well travelled around Europe and neither of us knew .... until we learned via the Mccann case that the number is 112

Offline G-Unit

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2015, 11:15:58 PM »
Pegasus, we have gone over this lots of times.

Maybe nobody knew the number?  My hubby and I are very well travelled around Europe and neither of us knew .... until we learned via the Mccann case that the number is 112

Perhaps they should have accepted Mrs Fenn's offer to use her phone?
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Offline sadie

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2015, 11:26:29 PM »
Perhaps they should have accepted Mrs Fenn's offer to use her phone?

It was too late Gunit ... or at least that is what they thought.

Matt had already been to main reception and aked for them to ring the police.  As far as The Mccanns were concerned, they believed the Police had been called and were on their way.

They thought that iMrs Fenns offer was just too late.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2015, 11:28:08 PM »
It was too late Gunit ... or at least that is what they thought.

Matt had already been to main reception and aked for them to ring the police.  As far as The Mccanns were concerned, they believed the Police had been called and were on their way.

They thought that iMrs Fenns offer was just too late.

True.
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Offline pegasus

Re: Why did the Ocean Club not call the police sooner?
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2015, 12:05:36 AM »
OC/MW had a proper missing child procedure which they activated immediately.
How would people here write that procedure? Would you insist that police are called the moment a child goes out of view for a second? Or would your procedure mobilise staff and search the immediate area first, then phone police if that search was unsuccessful?