CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.

[John]

Agreed. But we cannot tell whether alerts are valid or not in any particular case.

Successful alerts are only confirmed if evidence is later found which supports them.  The dogs are merely a tool and a very useful tool at that.

Certainly there will be errors and wrongly interpreted alerts just as no two dogs will have the same ability.  Bottom line is this, CSI and cadaver dogs can be extremely useful in the search for a missing person but as history has taught us they must not be relied on.

[Carana]

Successful alerts are only confirmed if evidence is later found which supports them.  The dogs are merely a tool and a very useful tool at that.

Certainly there will be errors and wrongly interpreted alerts just as no two dogs will have the same ability.  Bottom line is this, CSI and cadaver dogs can be extremely useful in the search for a missing person but as history has taught us they must not be relied on.

I find that to be a fair statement.

[John]

It is good police and forum practice to use the alerts as an INDICATION of the possibility of the existence of EVIDENCE.

It is poor police and forum practice to use alerts AS EVIDENCE.

The alerts are evidence.  Problem is nobody knows what of.

[OxfordBloo]

The alerts are evidence.  Problem is nobody knows what of.

They are evidence of the possible existence (an indication) of real evidence. Not in any way evidence of any culpability or situation beyond their own existence.

They have the same evidentiary value as motive or opportunity or personal habits or history or previous convictions- not real probative evidence, only routes to real evidence.

[Carana]

You didn't start from an assumption of ignorance though. You started with the assumption that dogs give false alerts.

If dogs do give false alerts, what does that tell us about these two dogs in particular? It tells us they may have made false alerts. In three alerts we know that something was found, so the alerts weren't false. In the case of the other alerts we don't know if they were true or false as nothing was found. It's really that simple. No need for complicated statistical analysis of probabilities. I am making no assumptions at all, so I have nothing to prove.

What was found?

[jassi]

The alerts are evidence.  Problem is nobody knows what of.

Indeed, the alerts are evidence, they did occur and were witnessed to have occurred.  Their meaning has not been proved.

[Anna]

Successful alerts are only confirmed if evidence is later found which supports them.  The dogs are merely a tool and a very useful tool at that.

Certainly there will be errors and wrongly interpreted alerts just as no two dogs will have the same ability.  Bottom line is this, CSI and cadaver dogs can be extremely useful in the search for a missing person but as history has taught us they must not be relied on.

I agree entirely with this, John.
These dogs and their handlers, do a wonderful job of finding missing persons, but as in most things, they are not infallible.

A dear friend who died suddenly, a few years ago, trained these dogs and their handlers.

He was of the opinion, that without these dogs, it would be a hard and long task for the police to locate victims.
However he also said that the cadaver dog alerts can only be accepted as successful if a cadaver is found. The same applies to drugs, blood or firearm, search dogs.

His own dog was a beautiful Springer spaniel.

[John]

I agree entirely with this, John.
These dogs and their handlers, do a wonderful job of finding missing persons, but as in most things, they are not infallible.

A dear friend who died suddenly, a few years ago, trained these dogs and their handlers.

He was of the opinion, that without these dogs, it would be a hard and long task for the police to locate victims.
However he also said that the cadaver dog alerts can only be accepted as successful if a cadaver is found. The same applies to drugs, blood or firearm, search dogs.

His own dog was a beautiful Springer spaniel.

Thanks Anna.  The most professional and dedicated dog handlers will gain an understanding of their dog as time progresses.  He or she will come to appreciate their dogs worth.  Martin Grime had much confidence in Eddie and his ability to sniff out cadaver scent but even he could not go beyond stating that the dog alerts had "...no evidential reliability..." in the absence of other forensic evidence.

[OxfordBloo]

Thanks Anna.  The most professional and dedicated dog handlers will gain an understanding of their dog as time progresses.  He or she will come to appreciate their dogs worth.  Martin Grime had much confidence in Eddie and his ability to sniff out cadaver scent.

Mediums have considerable confidence in the correctness of their communications with the spirit world.

Expert self assessment is valueless.

[Anna]

Mediums have considerable confidence in the correctness of their communications with the spirit world.

Expert self assessment is valueless.

If you are confident that your child will always be alert to the highway code and crossing the road safely, would that make your confidence, worthless?
However if that child misjudged the safety of a road and an accident occurred, your confidence would be shattered.

Mr Grime believes in his dogs because he has no reason to think otherwise of their capabilities.
And if he didn’t have confidence and trust in them, he would be in the wrong job.
He does however accept that their alerts, where no corroborating evidence is found is of no use in a court of law.

If the reason for the alert whether true or false is unknown, then it is non evidential. There are also so many other factors that could cause the alert, that the dog may have indeed detected a scent. We don’t know and poor little Eddie cant tell us.

[John]

Mediums have considerable confidence in the correctness of their communications with the spirit world.

Expert self assessment is valueless.

No, not valueless but unquantifiable.

[OxfordBloo]

No, not valueless but unquantifiable.

I prefer valueless as it cannot be reliably measured much as Grime's confidence in his dogs cannot be measured.

[Alice Purjorick]

The NPIA report confirmed that because the investigating officers accepted the indication of cadaver odour suggested that the cadaver had been removed elsewhere that considerable police time was wasted searching areas other than where she was found.

For instance the house of her actual abductor was clean and hence the police did not search it as thoroughly as they might have if they had thought that she was still alive.

Belief without reason is dangerous.

So you have read the entire report? If you have then you should find it as easy to post the link to it as it is to post yet another opinion backed up by only another little homily.

[pathfinder73]

I prefer valueless as it cannot be reliably measured much as Grime's confidence in his dogs cannot be measured.

The dogs detect the scent they are trained to find. If Keela finds no blood then Eddie suggests it is cadaver scent. It is up to the police to confirm the source of the scent. SY seem to be spending millions on this case to find that proof. It's very simple - if SY find proof to confirm the dog alerts this becomes a murder case and everything changes.

"But in terms of that file, what happened if you recall was that the family handed to our team that are investigating the, or reviewing the murder of...of sorry, reviewing the missing girl. errr the McCann daughter." (Sir Bernard Hogan Howe)

[OxfordBloo]

The dogs detect the scent they are trained to find. If Keela finds no blood then Eddie suggests it is cadaver scent. It is up to the police to confirm the source of the scent. SY seem to be spending millions on this case to find that proof. It's very simple - if SY find proof to confirm the dog alerts this becomes a murder case and everything changes.

"But in terms of that file, what happened if you recall was that the family handed to our team that are investigating the, or reviewing the murder of...of sorry, reviewing the missing girl. errr the McCann daughter." (Sir Bernard Hogan Howe)

Each dog may alert when there is no target.

SY cannot possibly find proof of the dog alerts; no forensic matter remains to be investigated. The alerts will always remain mere indications.