Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 588482 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2015, 03:34:27 PM »
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?

And the expert of "26 years' experience" in the PJ didn't realise that that should be standard procedure right from the beginning?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2015, 04:16:20 PM »
Compare this:

The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

(Goncalo Amaral, purporting to relate what Mark Harrison said)

With ...

(more in edit).

The penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's third and final report:

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz.


Do some people still not get why Amaral lost?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 04:20:39 PM by ferryman »

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2015, 05:28:43 PM »
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?


I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.





The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Davel

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2015, 05:32:31 PM »
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?

there is nothing wrong with investigating family and friends...it's standard police procedure. The point of the thread is that amaral has lied about the significance of the alerts and because he is an experienced police officer some people have believed him.
I'm  a smart arse and proud of it....better ...than...being...a ...dumb...ass

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2015, 05:46:13 PM »
there is nothing wrong with investigating family and friends...it's standard police procedure. The point of the thread is that amaral has lied about the significance of the alerts and because he is an experienced police officer some people have believed him.

Misinterpretation is one thing.

Outright fabrication (what Amaral is guilty of) is another ...

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2015, 07:30:25 PM »

I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.


That's a delicate way of formulating the situation. ;)

However, he doesn't actually explain why he didn't take into account the dog / forensic reports sent in during his tenure.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2015, 08:17:43 PM »

I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.

What evidence did Almeida actually refer to? It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators that their already existing suspicions were correct.

1. The fact that the parents insisted on the abduction scenario from the beginning, and publicised their opinion using the media.
2. The whole group appear to have agreed together on the frequency of checking. Their statements are so incoherent that they all appear to be lying.
3. Jane Tanner's sighting is not very convincing, particularly as Gerry didn't even see her. Her description of the man kept changing also.
4. Simple things became disinformation: the question of the opened or closed window; the shutter up or down; the balcony door opened' the front door, locked or open.
5. Nevertheless, before the Media they kept (and keep) declaring their hope on finding their daughter alive: the first time that the hypothesis of the death of the little girl was raised it was, effectively, suggested by the McCann. (Krugel)
6. Although the parents publicised how much they wanted to help the investigation, most of the above points demonstrate how, in fact, they were spreading confusion.
7. The story was changed constantly in order to explain facts as they emerged.
8. Publicity was insisted on despite warnings that this could lead to the child being harmed.
9. Simulation of the scene was suspected.

The work done by the dog team, in Portugal, brought conviction of this slope [ angle] / proposition [ theory] of the investigation, not that it had been ignored previously, but because they [the dogs] could have determined the place where clues / trace evidence could be recovered that could be, scientifically, proven.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2015, 08:35:29 PM »
It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators ...

Which investigators?

Certainly not Harrison, as I've already posted ...

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2015, 08:39:24 PM »
It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators ...

Which investigators?

Certainly not Harrison, as I've already posted ...

The Portuguese police who were investigating the case. Harrison was an advisor.
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2015, 08:42:21 PM »
Good balancing post there G-Unit. Here are a few observations/comments from me, thinking out loud from memory.

-The Portuguese at the time had no experience, moreover, had never heard of cadaver dogs (source:Police spokesman)
-A British expert advised them in general on the search for a body
-A British expert suggested the dogs be sent into the Mccanns' and friends' holidays residences and vehicles (M Harrison)
-There was the challenge of the different languages at play here to consider
-I believe it is unfair to say Amaral fabricated things, as opposed to his team not understanding every nuance, and not crossing the t's and dotting the i's
-They put together all the evidence in the case and his team at the time came to certain conclusions about what they think happened
-They were under pressure to solve a case as are British police all the time
IMO they did not act any different to how any other police force would act
-There is no proof to this date that the wrong people were implicated or that Madeleine Mccann is alive, the reverse being true also
-The Portuguese CPS at the time decided not to charge them

It is interesting though how Mr Amarals's book has been described as "full of lies", despite a higher court ruling saying no such thing, no mitigation given to "translation errors", to "what one would have done at the time" as opposed to "in hindsight" ad infinitum, as is given to the Mccann couple and friends for every possible discrepancy or questionable statement/action/event

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2015, 08:45:42 PM »
The Portuguese police who were investigating the case. Harrison was an advisor.

Ah!

But I take it you would accept that the Portuguese police, witnessing dogs of their type (Keela and Eddie) in action for the first time ever, and knowing nothing about them, would listen to those experienced and adept at interpreting their reactions before reaching any conclusions of their own, and doubtless would consider themselves ill-equipped to contradict what those experienced in use or deployment of the dogs might have to say.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2015, 09:00:43 PM »
Good balancing post there G-Unit. Here are a few observations/comments from me, thinking out loud from memory.

-The Portuguese at the time had no experience, moreover, had never heard of cadaver dogs (source:Police spokesman)
-A British expert advised them in general on the search for a body
-A British expert suggested the dogs be sent into the Mccanns' and friends' holidays residences and vehicles (M Harrison)
-There was the challenge of the different languages at play here to consider
-I believe it is unfair to say Amaral fabricated things, as opposed to his team not understanding every nuance, and not crossing the t's and dotting the i's
-They put together all the evidence in the case and his team at the time came to certain conclusions about what they think happened
-They were under pressure to solve a case as are British police all the time
IMO they did not act any different to how any other police force would act
-There is no proof to this date that the wrong people were implicated or that Madeleine Mccann is alive, the reverse being true also
-The Portuguese CPS at the time decided not to charge them

It is interesting though how Mr Amarals's book has been described as "full of lies", despite a higher court ruling saying no such thing, no mitigation given to "translation errors", to "what one would have done at the time" as opposed to "in hindsight" ad infinitum, as is given to the Mccann couple and friends for every possible discrepancy or questionable statement/action/event

Thank you mercury. I agree with your points also. If anyone points out that Gerald McCann didn't remember the day after which door he used to go in and out of the apartment 'he was distraught'. If a statement by the parents is criticised 'it was probably mistranslated'. As you say, Amaral may not be right but he has not been proved wrong either.
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.

Offline Davel

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2015, 09:31:10 PM »
Thank you mercury. I agree with your points also. If anyone points out that Gerald McCann didn't remember the day after which door he used to go in and out of the apartment 'he was distraught'. If a statement by the parents is criticised 'it was probably mistranslated'. As you say, Amaral may not be right but he has not been proved wrong either.

Amaral has been proved wrong...this is wrong...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


He has also claimed that he could prove Maddie dies in5a...he can't...he's telling lies again
I'm  a smart arse and proud of it....better ...than...being...a ...dumb...ass

Offline Davel

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2015, 09:34:59 PM »
Remember that the evidence amaral claimed pointed to the McCanns was discounted by the archiving report
I'm  a smart arse and proud of it....better ...than...being...a ...dumb...ass

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2015, 09:52:10 PM »
Amaral has been proved wrong...this is wrong...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


He has also claimed that he could prove Maddie dies in5a...he can't...he's telling lies again

Amaral's theory has as much validy as any other at this moment in time. When someone proves that something else happened, then he is wrong.
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.