Search areas: who searched where, when and how

[pegasus]

Who was with Kate when Fiona went out to search briefly in the early aftermath?
Where was Rachel? Next door?
Where was Jane? Three doors along?
At what stage was the front door unlocked/opened?

I don't believe at all that any of the group were involved in anything untoward - but I think there may have been small windows of opportunity for a child to be moved from 5a to one of the friends' apartments without being seen as most of the public activity was taking place at the rear in the early stages.

I understand your points, but very soon after the alarm there were other unconnected people searching all around the area near the apartment.  And before long probably a hundred or more, and this continued for days. It would be very difficult for anyone to walk past many people without being seen.

[misty]

I understand your points, but very soon after the alarm there were other unconnected people searching all around the area near the apartment.  And before long probably a hundred or more, and this continued for days. It would be very difficult for anyone to walk past many people without being seen.

Hypothetically - how long would it have taken to get from the front door of 5A to the front door of 5B carrying something which was obscured by the wall from sight of anyone in the car park?

[misty]

The usual procedure in almost all missing child cases seems to be that the ordinary search dogs deployed in the first hours are not taken everywhere around but not inside the residence.
But here is an RCMP case where, most unusually, an ordinary search dog was allowed to search inside the residence http://globalnews.ca/news/994835/prince-george-rcmp-service-dog-finds-missing-child-asleep-in-his-own-home/

Thank you for that, and the Vogue article.
The Canadian case is an excellent example of why a trained sniffer dog should be deployed immediately on all cases such as this. Such a lot of distress (and waste of resources) was avoided.
It will be interesting to read how the dogs were deployed in the tragic case of Amber Peat when the inquest takes place.

[pegasus]

Hypothetically - how long would it have taken to get from the front door of 5A to the front door of 5B carrying something which was obscured by the wall from sight of anyone in the car park?

About 12 seconds IMO but that apartment is completely ruled out IMO, also that wall is not very high

[Brietta]

I understand your points, but very soon after the alarm there were other unconnected people searching all around the area near the apartment.  And before long probably a hundred or more, and this continued for days. It would be very difficult for anyone to walk past many people without being seen.

I'm not sure where you are going with the suggestion Madeleine could have been overlooked by the early searchers in the immediate location where she went missing.

What do you think might have happened to her?  If something was concealing her during the searches, what might that have been and happened when she wakened?

[pegasus]

Thank you for that, and the Vogue article.
The Canadian case is an excellent example of why a trained sniffer dog should be deployed immediately on all cases such as this. Such a lot of distress (and waste of resources) was avoided.
It will be interesting to read how the dogs were deployed in the tragic case of Amber Peat when the inquest takes place.

Yes, deploying an ordinary sniffer dog inside a s a p would have solved many cases.
But usually that is the one place it is not deployed.
The chest-of-drawers case is a rare exception.
What would have happened if Astro had not been allowed to search inside that residence?

[misty]

Yes, deploying an ordinary sniffer dog inside a s a p would have solved many cases.
But usually that is the one place it is not deployed.
The chest-of-drawers case is a rare exception.
What would have happened if Astro had not been allowed to search inside that residence?

There is a possibility the child would have suffocated before being located. That would depend on various factors.

[sadie]

About 12 seconds IMO but that apartment is completely ruled out IMO, also that wall is not very high

From memory, the wall is chest height along that short stretch ..... but the car park was empty almost all the time.   Apart from the 30 minute visits +a couple of extras  because Janes little one was poorly no-one was around.

A child could be carried along there hidden imo., but I dont think she was .  I think she was likely  passed over the wall between the flats and the car park.



But none of us actually know.

Do we?

[pegasus]

From memory, the wall is chest height along that short stretch ..... but the car park was empty almost all the time.   Apart from the 30 minute visits +a couple of extras  because Janes little one was poorly no-one was around.

A child could be carried along there hidden imo., but I dont think she was .  I think she was likely  passed over the wall between the flats and the car park.
But none of us actually know.

Do we?

http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/040507_MR_FORENSIC_AT_MCCANN_APARTMENT%20(3)_2.jpg
Chest-height or waist-height? After the alarm, anyone walking along there would be seen IMO.

[misty]

http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/040507_MR_FORENSIC_AT_MCCANN_APARTMENT%20(3)_2.jpg
Chest-height or waist-height? After the alarm, anyone walking along there would be seen IMO.

Only someone with no reason to be there would be noticed.
No-one reported seeing Gerry or Diane testing the window shutter - and that happened after the alarm was raised.

[Alfred R Jones]

I'm not sure where you are going with the suggestion Madeleine could have been overlooked by the early searchers in the immediate location where she went missing.

What do you think might have happened to her?  If something was concealing her during the searches, what might that have been and happened when she wakened?

I believe Pegasus has already mooted the possibility that Madeleine's body was hidden behind a bath panel, correct me if I'm wrong...

[pegasus]

I believe Pegasus has already mooted the possibility that Madeleine's body was hidden behind a bath panel, correct me if I'm wrong...

No, I was only pointing out there is a volume of space enclosed there at non-tap end because the bath is shorter than the room. Anyway since then I looked closer and there is IMO no removeable panel so it is completely inaccessible volume, which would IMO make your suggestion impossible. It would also IMO be ruled out by the fact that Eddie was filmed standing on top of this enclosed volume and he said nothing.

[sadie]

http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/040507_MR_FORENSIC_AT_MCCANN_APARTMENT%20(3)_2.jpg
Chest-height or waist-height? After the alarm, anyone walking along there would be seen IMO.

With your photograph, The photographer is standing fairly close in an elevated position so looking slightly down.  The policeman is set right back so he would appear higher relative to the wall.   Tis difficult to describe, but it gives a false impression..

Policemen are usually tall.   Burglars are often weasely little blokes.  This photo was taken from fairly close to the wall.  Remember that the place was on a hill and the car park was elevated relative to the pathway and the closer one got to the wall the more one looked down on it.   

The photo I show below is also taken from a slightly raised position but the PJ are close to the wall, which decreases somewhat the falseness.     I think that on the path side, the wall would have been approx chest height for many burglars, especially if the viewer had been well back from the wall so the ground level differences made a lesser visual difference.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg


Everybody that walked across that parking lot or on the street was well back so the ground level differences had a lesser effect to what could be seen of any man walking along that path.  Getting closer as they approached would improve the situation in one way, but then they were looking in absolutely the wrong direction

Anyway, I personally do not think it likely that Madeleine went along that path, either carried or under her own steam.   I think that she was passed over that wall with here head changing from the lifters right arm to the carriers left arm in the exchange.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PB/Light_on_Shutters183.jpg


Wall much higher than window sill.

http://youtu.be/IeuMzyaCnnY

See where the sill is relative to big man [ cop] PeterMacs waist and chest, then take in the difference of sill height to wall height.

I am inclined to think that even on him the wall would have been about chest height.


Do you agree ?

[pegasus]

My point Sadie is this: if anyone of any dimensions had removed a child from that apartment after the very first searches began, by any method, along that path or by any other route, he or she would certainly have been seen.

[sadie]

My point Sadie is this: if anyone of any dimensions had removed a child from that apartment after the very first searches began, by any method, along that path or by any other route, he or she would certainly have been seen.

I agree after the searches, with people frequently coming and going .... and even examining the shutters .... and probably going in and out of 5A via the front door quite often.   At that stage 5A would be the focus of everyones attention.


But I do think thta it was just about possible for a smallish man to have carried Madeleine , more or less hidden from view by that wall at times when  no-one was around much.   Same as I can understand why nobody noticed that the shutters were slightly lifted.


I dont think it happened tho.  I think that she was passed over that wall by the lifter to Tannerman.