Author Topic: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine  (Read 20044 times)

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Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2015, 01:50:06 PM »
Let's assume Mrs C, just before she got home from tapas, did hear the very first searching.
The only way to make that work is:

M returns to tapas
G leaves tapas
J leaves tapas
G returns to tapas
J returns to tapas
M and R leave tapas
M returns to tapas
J leaves tapas
R returns to tapas
C family leave tapas ???
K leaves tapas
K returns to tapas
G K R M R D F leave tapas
G K R M R D F arrive at 5A garden gate
Searches begin
Mrs C hears searcher calling girl's name ???
C family arrive home ???

IMO it's impossible to make it work if the C family left tapas any earlier than that.

SC said that people were getting up and going out intermittingly. Which means he saw G and JT leaving at least.
They went to bed immediately after arriving at their accommodation at 10.30 pm?
I think they left after 9.30. They aren't alone in getting times wrong.
They booked dinner for 7PM. so a long time in tapas.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2015, 01:51:00 PM »
Let's assume Mrs C, just before she got home from tapas, did hear the very first searching.
The only way to make that work is:

M returns to tapas
G leaves tapas
J leaves tapas
G returns to tapas
J returns to tapas
M and R leave tapas
M returns to tapas
J leaves tapas
R returns to tapas
C family leave tapas ???
K leaves tapas
K returns to tapas
G K R M R D F leave tapas
G K R M R D F arrive at 5A garden gate
Searches begin
Mrs C hears searcher calling girl's name ???
C family arrive home ???

IMO it's impossible to make it work if the C family left tapas any earlier than that.

Unless, of course the chef was correct;

A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm

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Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2015, 02:15:57 PM »
Unless, of course the chef was correct;

A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm

They all got times mixed up, G. It was a panicky time for all.


22.15 approx (29) Alexandre da Luz Oliveira

 He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group—David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell’s food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
The witness went to them, he does not remember which one, and asked what was happening. One of them responded to the witness in English stating “GIRL IS MISSING”—that a child had gone missing. After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so)called the reception asking them to inform the police.About 22.15?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9.html
I believe this would have been Joe who ran out into the street and called Helder from the other restaurant  asking him to phone the policeat
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-130.html


22.20-22.30 (33) Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas   Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.
At that time, at about 22.20 – 22.30
he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group’s table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-140.html
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2015, 02:17:33 PM »
Unless, of course the chef was correct;

A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
Yes, but then how can we compress the timeline, with all the checks, so it ends at 21:20?
What time was the meal booked to start, on the reservation sheet?

« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 02:22:00 PM by pegasus »

Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2015, 02:29:07 PM »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2015, 02:46:23 PM »
Yes, but then how can we compress the timeline, with all the checks, so it ends at 21:20?
What time was the meal booked to start, on the reservation sheet?

IIRC. Some of the group arrived late and as would be expected, the rest of the group waited until everyone was seated, before ordering or starting their meal.
Do you think that they could have eaten a 3/4 course meal and done all the checking between courses much before 9.45/50pm when Russell returned from sorting out his child?

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2015, 02:50:38 PM »
Yes, but then how can we compress the timeline, with all the checks, so it ends at 21:20?
What time was the meal booked to start, on the reservation sheet?

20.30pm was the booking time. Perhaps that's why the PJ wanted the reconstitution?

Property manager B. J. J. W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present. When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.

Dinner finished at around 21H45 and some minutes passed where waiter R. A.E D. L. O. looked towards the table but saw no one - his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;

Between 21.30 and 22: Fitness instructor/Waiter J. R. S. went over to the table and joked with (Diane Webster): "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there." I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleine's father, running to the pool and to the children's play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Millennium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
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Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2015, 02:50:43 PM »
The usual timeline suggests the starters were ordered when the last 3 adults arrive from 5G at about 21:05?
That is 35 minutes late (reservation was for 20:30).
What time did first couple arrive at Tapas?
Is it possible we can move the whole meal earlier?
Like maybe all present and starters ordered at about 20:45, and meal ends abruptly at about 21:40?

« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 02:57:25 PM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2015, 03:00:11 PM »
How would it be possible for someone to be searching long before the last check began?

Is it possible Mrs C heard some other parent calling for own child of same first name?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 03:02:52 PM by pegasus »

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2015, 04:01:31 PM »
The usual timeline suggests the starters were ordered when the last 3 adults arrive from 5G at about 21:05?
That is 35 minutes late (reservation was for 20:30).
What time did first couple arrive at Tapas?
Is it possible we can move the whole meal earlier?
Like maybe all present and starters ordered at about 20:45, and meal ends abruptly at about 21:40?

Everyone agrees that the last ones to arrive were the Paynes. In their first statements Fiona and Dianne say they got there at 8.45pm.
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Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2015, 04:18:02 PM »
Everyone agrees that the last ones to arrive were the Paynes. In their first statements Fiona and Dianne say they got there at 8.45pm.
Interesting, if that time is accurate, then the first check was also at 8.45pm (not 9.00pm).

Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2015, 05:28:00 PM »
Interesting, if that time is accurate, then the first check was also at 8.45pm (not 9.00pm).

Well he(Matt) says they got to the tapas at 8.45 and it was 5 mins to nine that he went to check on the Paynes and decided to carry on and check the children even it was only 15 mins ago that they had left.

David P said that they left between 8.45 and 9 pm.

Some more Time muddles really, but I think Matt's account fits best, since the table was booked for 8.30-9pm


D Payne

00:46:42 1485 "And what time do you think that was?”
Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o’ clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o’ clock.”
1485 "And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you…”
Reply "Yes, yeah.”

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic39.html
M oldfield

because we can see the Tapas from our patio doors, we can see when anybody else goes down there, because the original table was booked for eight thirty, erm, we were a bit later that night and it was about quarter to and we saw Gerry and Kate down there and so we locked up, went round and joined them at the table. Now I don’t recall seeing Jane and Russell there, but I’m told that Jane was there at the time as well. But we got there and sort of chatted and then Russell arrived.
And we were all there, apart from Dave and Fiona and Fiona’s mother, Dianne, at sort of five to nine,

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic42.html
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 05:37:39 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2015, 06:31:10 PM »
So the Carpenters possibly saw, Matt get up and go out at 8.55pm and the Paynes arrive at about 9 pm Gerry go out at around 9.05pm
And JT go out at 9.13 and Gerry return at 9.15 then JT returns…………

,,,.A bit like a Buffet bar/waiting room in Paddington station, really, except for the food served was without cellophane wrappers.

We don’t know however if the Carpenters were still there when the men went out at 9.30pm which would have given us a closer time to when they did leave( SC just said “ people leaving intermittently”) Since they didn’t mention seeing any of the group outside and SC spent some time checking before crossing the road. I would have thought that it was after Matt returned.

Russ‘s child was crying………………Could she have been calling “Mummy” or “Daddy” and this is what was heard? A bit far away to hear that though. And that would more likely be before Russ got to the apartment. unless she carried on crying for a while.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 06:37:50 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2015, 07:30:16 PM »
The receptionist, Helder;

He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
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Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2015, 07:59:06 PM »
The receptionist, Helder;

He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
IMO this call is from employee JH mobile to reception. He had just been called into PDL and phoned from near tapas IMO. Call is in reception landline records timed by PT network clock just before 10:40pm (shortly before the first reception to GNR call which it prompted).