Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.

[pathfinder73]

When he was with Aoife, he was bathed in the brightest light in Luz, I would guess.   And then he would descend into lesser light.   So you are WRONG on that Pfinder

Your answer is based on a bigotted viewpoint that Gerry is Smithman   Try opening your mind and be less vindictive please.... jumping to conclusions without any reason !


The fact that someone did know that route is it seems, an indication that the abductor was local.... or had local knowledge.

You are wrong and we will see who he is.

[ShiningInLuz]

I have had time to go and have another look, so here's an update.

There IS a gate on the west side of the street of steps.  It is just to the rear of the house at the top.  It leads immediately to a very steep, very tall flight of stairs into the rear of the house.  It is also access to the rear garden.

The gate is metal, securely locked, and about a metre high.  The garden walls of the property are a bit higher.

So that one is a climb over wall job, unless the property doors or gate were open in 2007.

On an alleyway between the properties on the east side.  I had a good look and could not see one from the street of steps.  If one exists, it starts further east. 

What was particularly curious is that roughly opposite the house gate mentioned above, there is a garage door.  It is attached to the house to the rear of Fernando's.

It is clear that one cannot get a vehicle up to 25 de Abril, or down to Salgeidas or Calheta.  I am working on the assumption that way back in the day, traffic was allowed here.  The plaza in front of Fernando's and Kelly's looks like Salgeidas ran immediately in front of both.

However, that change seems to precede Smithman by years.

That brings us to lighting.  Bear in mind my view is Aug 2015, not 2007.

First, I could see up and down the street with no trouble at all, and I am no spring chicken. Second, the light at the north is 25 de Abril, and that does not cast a lot of light here.  Third, there is a light on the junction with Salgeidas, plus two white lights outside Fernando's.  Due to trees (Salgeidas and Fernando's) these are fairly blocked off now, but as to 2007...

Finally, I was peering over walls, inspecting garage doors, looking at how gates are secured.  People came and people went.  They were on holiday.  No one said anything to me or appeared to take any notice of me.

[sadie]

I have had time to go and have another look, so here's an update.

There IS a gate on the west side of the street of steps.  It is just to the rear of the house at the top.  It leads immediately to a very steep, very tall flight of stairs into the rear of the house.  It is also access to the rear garden.

The gate is metal, securely locked, and about a metre high.  The garden walls of the property are a bit higher.

So that one is a climb over wall job, unless the property doors or gate were open in 2007.

On an alleyway between the properties on the east side.  I had a good look and could not see one from the street of steps.  If one exists, it starts further east. 

What was particularly curious is that roughly opposite the house gate mentioned above, there is a garage door.  It is attached to the house to the rear of Fernando's.

It is clear that one cannot get a vehicle up to 25 de Abril, or down to Salgeidas or Calheta.  I am working on the assumption that way back in the day, traffic was allowed here.  The plaza in front of Fernando's and Kelly's looks like Salgeidas ran immediately in front of both.

However, that change seems to precede Smithman by years.

That brings us to lighting.  Bear in mind my view is Aug 2015, not 2007.

First, I could see up and down the street with no trouble at all, and I am no spring chicken. Second, the light at the north is 25 de Abril, and that does not cast a lot of light here.  Third, there is a light on the junction with Salgeidas, plus two white lights outside Fernando's.  Due to trees (Salgeidas and Fernando's) these are fairly blocked off now, but as to 2007...

Finally, I was peering over walls, inspecting garage doors, looking at how gates are secured.  People came and people went.  They were on holiday.  No one said anything to me or appeared to take any notice of me.

Well done Shining 

Please dont get picked up by the PJ !

Garage seems very interesting.    From the days of donkeys and paniers, I wonder?   Some as in Morocco.


Some observations but being pushed by the family today.  Will come back later

[sadie]

I have had time to go and have another look, so here's an update.

There IS a gate on the west side of the street of steps.  It is just to the rear of the house at the top.  It leads immediately to a very steep, very tall flight of stairs into the rear of the house.  It is also access to the rear garden.

The gate is metal, securely locked, and about a metre high.  The garden walls of the property are a bit higher.

So that one is a climb over wall job, unless the property doors or gate were open in 2007.

I think that there was interest in that earlier on in this forum.

On an alleyway between the properties on the east side.  I had a good look and could not see one from the street of steps.  If one exists, it starts further east. 

What was particularly curious is that roughly opposite the house gate mentioned above, there is a garage door.  It is attached to the house to the rear of Fernando's.

It is clear that one cannot get a vehicle up to 25 de Abril, or down to Salgeidas or Calheta.  I am working on the assumption that way back in the day, traffic was allowed here.  The plaza in front of Fernando's and Kelly's looks like Salgeidas ran immediately in front of both.

However, that change seems to precede Smithman by years.

I am a bit muddled by what you are saying here, Shining.  Can we first ascertain, is Fernanados the same as Cafe Calhete?   Just another name for it?

On the photo I posted, we saw a gate on this eastern side, so was the garage at right angles to it, or was it across the stepped street??

That brings us to lighting.  Bear in mind my view is Aug 2015, not 2007.

First, I could see up and down the street with no trouble at all, and I am no spring chicken. Second, the light at the north is 25 de Abril, and that does not cast a lot of light here.  Third, there is a light on the junction with Salgeidas, plus two white lights outside Fernando's.  Due to trees (Salgeidas and Fernando's) these are fairly blocked off now, but as to 2007...

I have used it so much that now I have a broken my GE.  The images are often zigzaggy with bits overlapping other bits of the image.   Originally I positioned myself in R Salgeidas to view the street scene ...  and the lampost  on the corner of R. Salgeiras and the stepped street appeared to only have wires on top.  No lamp.... but it was a bit zigzaggy.

Since your report I have positioned myself in the GE. street scene on Rua Calhete fairly near to the Dolphin Restaurant .  This view of the lampost, altho distant, is much clearer and shows a big lamp on top.


I agree, with that lamp, the gate in my image would be quite well lit imo.

Finally, I was peering over walls, inspecting garage doors, looking at how gates are secured.  People came and people
 went.  They were on holiday.  No one said anything to me or appeared to take any notice of me.

Well you have done a great job Shining.  With that lamp on the particular gate shown in my image, I think it much less likely that it would have been where Smithman went.


Now that garage door is intriguing me ... was that well lit? 


No honestly dont bother to go again .... was only joking 

[sadie]

I think that there was interest in that earlier on in this forum.

I am a bit muddled by what you are saying here, Shining.  Can we first ascertain, is Fernanados the same as Cafe Calhete?   Just another name for it?

On the photo I posted, we saw a gate on this eastern side, so was the garage at right angles to it, or was it across the stepped street??

GE Street Scene
I have used it so much that now I have a broken my GE.  The images are often zigzaggy with bits overlapping other bits of the image.   Originally I positioned myself in R Salgeidas to view the street scene ...  and the lampost (on the corner of R. Salgeiras and the stepped street) appeared to only have wires on top.  No lamp.... but it was a bit zigzaggy.

Since your report I have positioned myself in the GE. street scene on Rua Calhete fairly near to the Dolphin Restaurant .  This view of the lampost, altho distant, is much clearer and shows a big lamp on top.


I agree, with that lamp, the gate in my image would be quite well lit imo.

Well you have done a great job Shining.  With that lamp shining on the particular gate shown in my image, I think it much less likely that it would have been where Smithman went.

Nothing like having someone on the ground, actually there , is there?
Thanks for all your help.



Now that garage door is intriguing me ... was that well lit? 


No honestly dont bother to go again .... was only joking 

[ShiningInLuz]

I think that there was interest in that earlier on in this forum.

I am a bit muddled by what you are saying here, Shining.  Can we first ascertain, is Fernanados the same as Cafe Calhete?   Just another name for it?

On the photo I posted, we saw a gate on this eastern side, so was the garage at right angles to it, or was it across the stepped street??

I have used it so much that now I have a broken my GE.  The images are often zigzaggy with bits overlapping other bits of the image.   Originally I positioned myself in R Salgeidas to view the street scene ...  and the lampost  on the corner of R. Salgeiras and the stepped street appeared to only have wires on top.  No lamp.... but it was a bit zigzaggy.

Since your report I have positioned myself in the GE. street scene on Rua Calhete fairly near to the Dolphin Restaurant .  This view of the lampost, altho distant, is much clearer and shows a big lamp on top.


I agree, with that lamp, the gate in my image would be quite well lit imo.

Well you have done a great job Shining.  With that lamp on the particular gate shown in my image, I think it much less likely that it would have been where Smithman went.


Now that garage door is intriguing me ... was that well lit? 


No honestly dont bother to go again .... was only joking 

Fernando's = Café Calhete = Bar Calhete.  Different people use different names for it here.  I happen to use Fernando's, because it makes clear that it is typically Portuguese, indeed it's the main typically Portuguese bar in Luz.

The garage door is on the same side as the white tubular metal gate, a couple of metres further up and at right angles to it.  It is lit to much the same extent as the white gate.

I doubt anyone went in the garage door carrying a child.  That would look unusual.  Going in the white gate with a child would look totally normal i.e. non-memorable.

[pegasus]

But is it not likely that the cafe calhete had that evening people sitting outside ShiningInLuz?
In Aug 2009 it had 6 outdoor tables and about 18 outdoor chairs (with about as many again in reserve).

[sadie]

But is it not likely that the cafe calhete had that evening people sitting outside ShiningInLuz?
In Aug 2009 it had 6 outdoor tables and about 18 outdoor chairs (with about as many again in reserve).

If so, why has no-one come forward as seeing Smithman, unless he vanished on the stepped street area?

Even had he turned right and gone along Rua Salgeiras, he would have been visible to people sitting outside Fernandos.


So where did he go?

[pegasus]

If so, why has no-one come forward as seeing Smithman, unless he vanished on the stepped street area?

Even had he turned right and gone along Rua Salgeiras, he would have been visible to people sitting outside Fernandos.

So where did he go?

There are many photos of calheta bar with outdoor tables.
If any customers was sitting at those tables that evening, they would see the man as soon as he reached the junction of stepped lane and Rua Salg, so one possibility is, he did not get that far. (BTW this is an innocent father with child IMO)

[ShiningInLuz]

But is it not likely that the cafe calhete had that evening people sitting outside ShiningInLuz?
In Aug 2009 it had 6 outdoor tables and about 18 outdoor chairs (with about as many again in reserve).

Fernando's is considered a sports bar, which simply means it has a large screen TV and either 1 or 2 pool tables.  At 10pm in early May most Portuguese people think it is cold, therefore I would expect them to be inside.

The law prohibiting smoking indoors in bars/restaurants (except if approved air extractors are fitted) was introduced in 1 Jan 2008, so even if there was a lot of smokers, they would probably be indoors.

Out front (ditto Kelly's) we are probably talking simply about those coming and going to their cars or to walk home.

But of course, I wasn't there on 3 May, so I can't be certain.

[ShiningInLuz]

If so, why has no-one come forward as seeing Smithman, unless he vanished on the stepped street area?

Even had he turned right and gone along Rua Salgeiras, he would have been visible to people sitting outside Fernandos.


So where did he go?

I am currently developing a blog post on this.  It needs a fair bit of polish, so it may be a while before publication.

However, I would guesstimate that around 90% of Portuguese people equate Smithman with GM.  It's much more complex than that, but the is the core issue.

[pegasus]

Fernando's is considered a sports bar, which simply means it has a large screen TV and either 1 or 2 pool tables.  At 10pm in early May most Portuguese people think it is cold, therefore I would expect them to be inside.

The law prohibiting smoking indoors in bars/restaurants (except if approved air extractors are fitted) was introduced in 1 Jan 2008, so even if there was a lot of smokers, they would probably be indoors.

Out front (ditto Kelly's) we are probably talking simply about those coming and going to their cars or to walk home.

But of course, I wasn't there on 3 May, so I can't be certain.

IMO it is likely the outdoor tables at calheta cafe would still be out at 10pm.
It wasn't that cold - for example at 10pm there were people who chose to be eating in the outdoor area of Tapas restaurant, and others tourists who chose to be eating outside on their balcony.

Also the lower part of stepped lane is visible from inside Dolphin.

[ShiningInLuz]

IMO it is likely the outdoor tables at calheta cafe would still be out at 10pm.
It wasn't that cold - for example at 10pm there were people who chose to be eating in the outdoor area of Tapas restaurant, and others tourists who chose to be eating outside on their balcony.

Also the lower part of stepped lane is visible from inside Dolphin.

The tables were probably out, but the question is, were the people?

Fernando's is typical Portuguese, and for that reason it is a haunt of the Portuguese.  The ex-pats prefer 'Irish' Kelly's, The 'English' Bull, the Cave Bar, the Mirage etc.

So the audience of Fernando's is mainly Portuguese.  And to Portuguese people 3 May at 10pm is cold.  Brits may well eat in the Tapas Bar to this time, or on their balconies.  Portuguese go indoors where it is warm, and leave the mad dogs and Englishmen to their adventures.

The lower part of the lane is viewable from the Dolphin.  Question, because I'm missing some information on my blog post.  The Smith's made their statements on 26 May.  When did the description from these first enter the public domain?

Why would anyone in the Dolphin remember something that happened weeks ago, and that seemed perfectly unremarkable at the time?

[Brietta]

The tables were probably out, but the question is, were the people?

Fernando's is typical Portuguese, and for that reason it is a haunt of the Portuguese.  The ex-pats prefer 'Irish' Kelly's, The 'English' Bull, the Cave Bar, the Mirage etc.

So the audience of Fernando's is mainly Portuguese.  And to Portuguese people 3 May at 10pm is cold.  Brits may well eat in the Tapas Bar to this time, or on their balconies.  Portuguese go indoors where it is warm, and leave the mad dogs and Englishmen to their adventures.

The lower part of the lane is viewable from the Dolphin.  Question, because I'm missing some information on my blog post.  The Smith's made their statements on 26 May.  When did the description from these first enter the public domain?

Why would anyone in the Dolphin remember something that happened weeks ago, and that seemed perfectly unremarkable at the time?

Just off the top of my head so may be wrong.

Didn't the Smiths make their initial statement to An Garda Síochána the day after Murat was constituted arguido approximately a fortnight after the third.
Their statements of the 26th were on their return to Portugal in order to make them in person and reconstitute the scene.

[Heriberto Janosch]

Of course people inside or outside, on a table, eating, drinking and chatting, not knowing of Madeleine abduction at the time, were not expecting (giving no attention) to store in memory for later recall an unremarkable simple fact like a man carrying a child in arms. There is a difference between looking and seeing. If you are attending eating, drinking and chatting you may lose other events.See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY