Author Topic: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.  (Read 50199 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #210 on: August 22, 2015, 07:49:53 PM »
Thanks Pegasus. Well, enough for me. The case seems to be trapped between those who are entitled to investigate but not too much interested in solving the case (PJ/PGR) and those who are interested in solving the case but are not entitled to investigate (SY and other people).
My opinion is the Smith sighting is unlikely to be relevant, not to an abduction scenario, and not to a concealment scenario. And in both scenarios it would be ignoring the sleeve length seen by young witness A. It would not be the only case in which investigators have led themselves astray, by insistence on a particular sighting being relevant.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 09:38:10 PM by pegasus »

Offline sadie

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #211 on: August 22, 2015, 11:50:10 PM »
All photos dated 14 Aug 2015 around 8:15pm.  All photos as per how good or how bad I took them at the time.  No retouching.

1414 Plaza from Dolphin east to Fernando's, Look, and Kelly's.  A hot August night, tables out for al fresco.  I think I can seen people outside Kelly's, but Kelly's does not serve food.

1415 Same spot to south of the street of little steps.  Dolphin (entrance) on the right.  Please note which way the diners beside the window are facing.  PS That's the dodgy phone calls box on the left.

1416 A family coming down the street of little steps.  Dolphin to the left.  Fernando's to the right.  Woman in somewhat skimpy white outfit coming out the front door of Fernando's.
The big screen TV can be seen through the window.

1417 Heaving with cars.  Heaving with people.  It definitely looks like people outside Kelly's.  That happens to be where they smoke nowadays, but it also happens to get volcano hot in Kelly's if there is a crowd in.

1418  This is at the very south end of the street of little steps.  It's Rua Calheta.  The Dolphin is to the left.  Fernando's is to the right.  Line of vision shows an adult can see from the very bottom right up into Primary School Street.

Great photos again Shining.  Thanks.
Am very frustrated that they have to be left on the page before.  Not at all satisfactory imo.


Looking at image 1416 and at GE dated 16/22/2007 [just 6 weeks after Madeleine vanished]

1.   The large tree outside Fernandos was either none existant or more likely, I think, just a small tree.   Difficult to be sure from GE , but it wasn't big anyhow.

2.   On the extreme NE corner of the grounds of The Dolphin Restaurant, we can see on GE 16/22/2007 that there was a very tall tree there.  We can tell that it is very tall by the length of its shadow.

3.  From The Dolphin. this very tall tree was unlikely to have blocked the view of the gate that initially interested me, unless it was VERY Gusty.

4.   However, I believe that it would have prevented the view of Smithman coming down the stepped street if he kept to the middle or more to the right as he descended.   

5.   It also looks as tho he could have turned right [west] into Rua Salgadeiras without anyone seeing him at the Dolphin. 

6.   Had he carried on past Rua Salgadeiras, I am not convinced that people looking through the side [eastern facing ] windows of the Dolphin would have been able to see him, cos even if you press your face to the glass you cannot see anyone so close to the side and below.    Window frames etc get in the way.


I am quite prepared to accept that people might not be sitting out at Fenandos on what would be considered a cool blustery evening in PdL.



So it seems to me that the most likely way he went ***if he came down the steps, is either
1.  right [west] along Rua Salg,
2.  into a house en route down
3.  or just possibly, but less likely, he might have come straight past The Dolphin before presumably turning west along the "sea front"
4.   It seems very unlikely that he would have turned left [east] in front of Fernandos, Kellys etc.... where all the action was likely to be.


Wonder if SY are on to something ?  Cos that is the general area that they searched

Offline pegasus

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2015, 01:50:14 AM »
But what if the cafe was open and there there were customers sitting outside?
Can you help us with the temperature Sadie?

Offline Heriberto Janosch

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2015, 09:41:48 AM »
To undersatnd when one talk about "furto" which escalates into abduction:

No Código Penal português, dentro do capítulo dos crimes contra a propriedade, dois artigos estabelecem a diferença penalizando diferentemente cada uma das duas situações.

O artigo 203.º, sob a epígrafe "Furto", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:

«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair coisa móvel alheia, é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos ou com pena de multa.

2 - A tentativa é punível.

3 - O procedimento criminal depende de queixa.»

O artigo 210.º, sob a epígrafe "Roubo", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:

«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair, ou constranger a que lhe seja entregue, coisa móvel alheia, por meio de violência contra uma    pessoa, de ameaça com perigo iminente para a vida ou para a integridade física, ou pondo-a na impossibilidade de resistir, é punido com pena de prisão de um a oito anos.

2 - A pena é a de prisão de três a quinze anos, se:

a) Qualquer dos agentes produzir perigo para a vida da vítima ou lhe infligir, pelo menos por negligência, ofensa à integridade física grave; ou

b) Se verificarem, singular ou cumulativamente, quaisquer requisitos referidos nos n.os 1 e 2 do artigo 204.º, sendo correspondentemente aplicável o disposto no n.º 4 do mesmo artigo.

3 - Se do facto resultar a morte de outra pessoa, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de oito a dezasseis anos.»

Em resumo, no roubo há uma subtração com constrangimento ou violência; no furto a subtração não comporta constrangimento ou violência.


Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2015, 12:11:10 PM »
1419 Looking east on Calheta towards the Dolphin on the left.  You can just pick out some lights on the Dolphin/Africa Craft Shop.  The next street light is about 10m behind me, so lighting here is sparse.

1420 From a little further west on Calheta looking to the west.  The next street light is at the junction with Travessa da Fontinha.  That is where the man in red is appearing behind a car.

This area is typified by buildings with no space between them and front doors opening directly onto the street.  Typically Portuguese.

Above the road sign on the left, the name of the lane is the only clue that a little beach exists - Travessa da Prainha.

1421. View from near the top of Travessa da Prainha to the south.  I was near the bottom end of the first house on the lane.  There is no street light in the lane.  Check Streetview and it shows the one on Calheta is now around 12m behind me to my left.  The two people at the bottom are where the cobbles stop and baked earth takes over.

[attachment deleted by admin]
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2015, 02:19:32 PM »
To undersatnd when one talk about "furto" which escalates into abduction:

No Código Penal português, dentro do capítulo dos crimes contra a propriedade, dois artigos estabelecem a diferença penalizando diferentemente cada uma das duas situações.

O artigo 203.º, sob a epígrafe "Furto", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:

«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair coisa móvel alheia, é punido com pena de prisão até 3 anos ou com pena de multa.

2 - A tentativa é punível.

3 - O procedimento criminal depende de queixa.»

O artigo 210.º, sob a epígrafe "Roubo", dá a definição seguinte, com o regime seguinte:

«1 - Quem, com ilegítima intenção de apropriação para si ou para outra pessoa, subtrair, ou constranger a que lhe seja entregue, coisa móvel alheia, por meio de violência contra uma    pessoa, de ameaça com perigo iminente para a vida ou para a integridade física, ou pondo-a na impossibilidade de resistir, é punido com pena de prisão de um a oito anos.

2 - A pena é a de prisão de três a quinze anos, se:

a) Qualquer dos agentes produzir perigo para a vida da vítima ou lhe infligir, pelo menos por negligência, ofensa à integridade física grave; ou

b) Se verificarem, singular ou cumulativamente, quaisquer requisitos referidos nos n.os 1 e 2 do artigo 204.º, sendo correspondentemente aplicável o disposto no n.º 4 do mesmo artigo.

3 - Se do facto resultar a morte de outra pessoa, o agente é punido com pena de prisão de oito a dezasseis anos.»

Em resumo, no roubo há uma subtração com constrangimento ou violência; no furto a subtração não comporta constrangimento ou violência.

Google translate

The Portuguese Penal Code, within the chapter of crimes against property, two articles establish the difference penalizing differently each of the two situations.

Article 203, entitled "Theft", gives the following definition with the following scheme:

«1 - Whoever, with intent of unlawful appropriation for yourself or someone else, subtract others movable, shall be punished with imprisonment up to three years or a fine.

2 - The attempt is punishable.

3 - Criminal proceedings on a complaint '.

Article 210, entitled "Theft", gives the following definition with the following scheme:

«1 - Who with unlawful intent to appropriate for himself or for another person, subtract, or constrain it delivered to you, others movable, by means of violence against a person, threatened with imminent danger to life or physical integrity or putting it impossible to resist, shall be punished with imprisonment from one to eight years.

2 - The penalty is imprisonment of three to fifteen years if:

a) Any of the agents produce danger to the victim's life or inflict at least negligently serious offense to physical integrity; or

b) If true, singularly or cumulatively, any requirements referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 204, and accordingly the provisions in paragraph 4 of that Article.

3 - If the act results in the death of another person, the offender shall be punished with imprisonment from eight to sixteen years. "

In short, the theft there is a subtraction with constraint or violence; the theft subtraction does not involve coercion or violence.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #216 on: August 23, 2015, 07:06:18 PM »
1419 Looking east on Calheta towards the Dolphin on the left.  You can just pick out some lights on the Dolphin/Africa Craft Shop.  The next street light is about 10m behind me, so lighting here is sparse.

1420 From a little further west on Calheta looking to the west.  The next street light is at the junction with Travessa da Fontinha.  That is where the man in red is appearing behind a car.

This area is typified by buildings with no space between them and front doors opening directly onto the street.  Typically Portuguese.

Above the road sign on the left, the name of the lane is the only clue that a little beach exists - Travessa da Prainha.

1421. View from near the top of Travessa da Prainha to the south.  I was near the bottom end of the first house on the lane.  There is no street light in the lane.  Check Streetview and it shows the one on Calheta is now around 12m behind me to my left.  The two people at the bottom are where the cobbles stop and baked earth takes over.

Rather off-topic, but I noticed when I tilted my computer screen your Smithman avi became darker & looked far more Portuguese. The shadowing totally changed his appearance.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2015, 07:53:48 PM »
Rather off-topic, but I noticed when I tilted my computer screen your Smithman avi became darker & looked far more Portuguese. The shadowing totally changed his appearance.
I picked the 'Portuguese' Smithman 'cos I think he might well be Portuguese.

Might be right, might be wrong.  Nice spot.
What's up, old man?

Offline misty

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #218 on: August 24, 2015, 01:15:15 AM »
I picked the 'Portuguese' Smithman 'cos I think he might well be Portuguese.

Might be right, might be wrong.  Nice spot.

Who commissioned the Portuguese version, do you know?
When darkened, it resembles a young Hewlett to me.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #219 on: August 24, 2015, 07:16:38 AM »
Who commissioned the Portuguese version, do you know?
When darkened, it resembles a young Hewlett to me.

Do we know where either of them came from?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2015, 03:38:28 PM »
1422.  This a bit fuzzy, but it shows the panorama fairly well.  The was from the bottom of the Lane of the Little Beach, looking east.

Top left, the white building is the Bull, which has a pub downstairs and a restaurant upstairs.  Next is Luz church.  Then the rest of the sweep is the Fortaleza.  The easiest way to get to the 'hole' is to get down onto the little beach here, and walk along to the entrance, but of course, that requires local knowledge.

Along the top, the path is flat and wide.  At 10pm on 3 May, the sun was down, the moon had not risen, and with the lack of lights here, the main source would have been any starlight.  Despite that, there would have been enough light because the going is so easy.

1423.  Underneath the Fortaleza, looking at the spot in Anna's photo posted earlier.  That had a tree and a large hole in the promenade surface.  Now there is a tree stump with a repaired promenade.  Presumably the tree roots were causing damage below.

1424.  More or less beside the tree stump, looking north.  This little alleyway runs up to beside the Bull.  Although it is an easy path now, back in the day it was apparently crumbling in ill-repair and overgrown with shrubbery. Plus it was a risky route for Smithman.


[attachment deleted by admin]
What's up, old man?

Offline sadie

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #221 on: August 25, 2015, 07:55:14 PM »
1422.  This a bit fuzzy, but it shows the panorama fairly well.  The was from the bottom of the Lane of the Little Beach, looking east.

Top left, the white building is the Bull, which has a pub downstairs and a restaurant upstairs.  Next is Luz church.  Then the rest of the sweep is the Fortaleza.  The easiest way to get to the 'hole' is to get down onto the little beach here, and walk along to the entrance, but of course, that requires local knowledge.

Along the top, the path is flat and wide.  At 10pm on 3 May, the sun was down, the moon had not risen, and with the lack of lights here, the main source would have been any starlight.  Despite that, there would have been enough light because the going is so easy.

1423.  Underneath the Fortaleza, looking at the spot in Anna's photo posted earlier.  That had a tree and a large hole in the promenade surface.  Now there is a tree stump with a repaired promenade.  Presumably the tree roots were causing damage below.

1424.  More or less beside the tree stump, looking north.  This little alleyway runs up to beside the Bull.  Although it is an easy path now, back in the day it was apparently crumbling in ill-repair and overgrown with shrubbery. Plus it was a risky route for Smithman.
1423.

The blue bin shows the spot where the tunnel /cave came out [below and adjoining the bin].  See the white bin in the same place.   I cant uderstand why thta bin stands there? .... no reason for it that I can see.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sahlketaylorsearch8.jpg


This tunnel was in a geographical fault with two mega-massive rocks on either side.  Both were tilted over [rolled over by ground movement, I think]


Fortazela terrace and restaurant behind.

Thanks again for the photos Shining.  You are doing a great job.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #222 on: August 27, 2015, 04:25:40 PM »
1425  From the steps beside the little promenade looking east towards the 'cliff' south of the Fortaleza.

First, one blue bin. @Sadie.  It's for ice lolly wrappers, fag packets, soiled nappies, dog poo and that type of thing, because the less that is deposited on the beach, the better.  The blue bin is a reference point.
Next to it is the channel in the rock.  Then serrated rocks.
Just above the bin, the white blob is a rowing boat.  It is not normal to have a rowing boat here, but this was mid-August 2015.  The rowing boat is 'secured' by taking the oars away.
The background shows the drop or 'cliff' that exists between the rocks to the south of the Fortaleza and the small beach.

1426 From the rocks to the covered terrace of the Fortaleza.  If you expand this image, you should be able to see more than one person dining.  The tables are side-on, which means anyone spotting me did it out of their peripheral vision.

1427 The serrated rocks of 1425 are back in view.  This is from further down the rocks, looking at the open terrace of the Fortaleza.  I can't tell if there was anyone out in mid August, but I doubt many were at 10pm on 3 May 2007. 
You can tell from this 2015 photo that there is a street light at the north end of the lane that runs up to the rear of the Bull.  I have little idea if this existed on 3 May 2007, though Google Earth suggests it did.  The important point is it is a long way away.




[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 04:36:17 PM by ShiningInLuz »
What's up, old man?

Offline Angelo222

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #223 on: August 27, 2015, 04:36:12 PM »
1423.

The blue bin shows the spot where the tunnel /cave came out [below and adjoining the bin].  See the white bin in the same place.   I cant understand why that bin stands there? .... no reason for it that I can see.

It is attached to a post Sadie.  You put rubbish in it!!  @)(++(*

Shining.  Is there still a small hole for storm water to get out of the cave?  That is the sort of place a small child could have been secreted yet SY have never had it opened up...that's bonkers imo.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 04:50:07 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline pegasus

Re: Smithman's route from apartment 5a to the beach according to Pathfinder.
« Reply #224 on: August 27, 2015, 05:07:34 PM »
It is attached to a post Sadie.  You put rubbish in it!!  @)(++(*

Shining.  Is there still a small hole for storm water to get out of the cave?  That is the sort of place a small child could have been secreted yet SY have never had it opened up...that's bonkers imo.
Yes, secured to a post so it does not get blown over by wind.
IMO it's possible that is a stream outlet usually dry which flows only after heavy rain, carrying branches.