Author Topic: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views  (Read 69476 times)

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Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #270 on: October 19, 2018, 11:51:02 AM »
Thanks for answering! I agree with you that the case against Luke was very weak.

Donald Findley QC said anyone looking at the evidence in totality would "be left with a sense of unease."

The appeal judges concluded:

"[185] Mr Findlay submitted finally that, even if no particular ground of appeal on its own warranted quashing of the conviction, the matters complained of when taken together were such as should lead to that result. Anyone looking at the evidence in totality, he said, would 'be left with a sense of unease'. We have already addressed and rejected the ground of appeal based on the proposition that no reasonable jury, having regard to the totality of the evidence, could have returned a guilty verdict. As to other matters of complaint, while there may be cases (for example, where the cumulative effect of a number of criticisms of a charge amounts to a misdirection - see Meighan v HM Advocate 2002 S.C.C.R. 779 at para.[15]) where the combined effect of a series of unsatisfactory features in a trial may result in a miscarriage of justice, we are not persuaded that this is such a case. Some general concern, or unease, in relation to a particular conviction, with no further specification, has never been recognised as a basis upon which a conviction could be disturbed (Harper v HM Advocate, at para.[35]).
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #271 on: October 19, 2018, 11:57:00 AM »
What has this got to do with Luke Mitchell being innocent or guilty? I do not judge people by their families or who they know, I am not that shallow.

Following my experiences, I do not think it at all shallow to learn more about the people campaigning on behalf of people like Luke Mitchell. There motives, agendas, egos etc.

I came to learn that some mothers for example are prepared to lie under oath and will go to great lengths in an attempt to cover up both the true character and behaviours of their sons and indeed themselves in order to present a facade of normalcy and to sustain the lie.

With hindsight Simon Hall was highly narcissistic.

"Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder have a very distorted sense of self. They are generally “grandiose”, which means they have an inflated or exaggerated opinion of their positive traits and / or abilities. Even though some are very attractive, highly intelligent, or exceptionally talented, narcissists typically regard themselves as elite or exceptional compared to everyone else. Regardless of their actual social standing, they perceive themselves as very important – and expect others to view them as such.

Narcissists thrive on the praise and admiration of others. Their air of superiority is exaggerated often quite obvious, although some narcissists are very skilled at pretending to be humble when necessary. However, their grandiosity can easily be shattered by criticism from others. When this occurs, it usually elicits rage, rejection, or a torrent of condescending remarks skillfully rendered to put the offending person in his or her place.

Narcissists, as a general rule, are very selfish. They have very little, if any, empathy for others. They may pretend to, however. Successful narcissists can initially come across as very understanding, very giving, and very selfless. In time, however, this façade will crack because they can’t sustain it. Their true colors always show eventually. Sadly, this can be quite a shock to anyone who was initially fooled by their act
. https://www.elementsbehavioralhealth.com/mental-health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/

Looking at a persons character and behaviours can give away many clues with regards the innocence/guilty argument imo.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 02:04:23 PM by Stephanie »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Baz

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #272 on: October 26, 2018, 12:33:55 PM »
http://longroadtojustice.com/?fbclid=IwAR2jERbpWdXPqRT99NE5zNuKmy9M0A9-96TNVWoHGWF4Onjs7ERbPIZjkNA

Sandra Lean has a new book out, seems to be about Luke Mitchell's case. I will have to wait till pay day to order but thought others might like to know.

Offline mrswah

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Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #273 on: October 26, 2018, 02:18:01 PM »
http://longroadtojustice.com/?fbclid=IwAR2jERbpWdXPqRT99NE5zNuKmy9M0A9-96TNVWoHGWF4Onjs7ERbPIZjkNA

Sandra Lean has a new book out, seems to be about Luke Mitchell's case. I will have to wait till pay day to order but thought others might like to know.

Thanks Baz.

I am currently re reading her first book---very interesting.

Offline Baz

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #274 on: October 26, 2018, 03:29:47 PM »
Thanks Baz.

I am currently re reading her first book---very interesting.

You're welcome.

It was a long time ago I read her first but I remember it being interesting!

Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #275 on: October 27, 2018, 10:36:00 AM »


If Luke were to "confess" to killing Jodi, what would be your reaction?  Would you automatically think he was guilty?

"Rebecca Aylward, 15, died after Joshua Davies lured her to woods near Aberkenfig, Bridgend, and attacked her with a rock in October 2010.
Davies was jailed for 14 years, but only confessed in September 2017

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45946631

Parents of Rebecca Aylwards killer Josh Davies say he's innocent
Now, explaining their reason for going public for the first time, Mr and Mrs Davies insisted they did not want people to “take sides”, adding: “We just want people to know the truth.

“We just want to get our story out once, and that’s it. People can make their own minds up.”

In an astonishingly frank interview the couple – who still believe their son is innocent – revealed:

Their horror when they first learnt the son, who had “never been in trouble”, had been arrested in connection with a brutal murder;

How they had wanted to reach out to Becca’s family, but had been warned off by police; and

Their son had started collecting old and antique knives, swords and guns at the age of nine – but that he was not “disturbed”.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/parents-rebecca-aylward-killer-josh-1817274
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 10:58:07 AM by Stephanie »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline justsaying

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #276 on: October 27, 2018, 10:57:07 AM »
"Rebecca Aylward, 15, died after Joshua Davies lured her to woods near Aberkenfig, Bridgend, and attacked her with a rock in October 2010.
Davies was jailed for 14 years, but only confessed in September 2017

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45946631

Parents of Rebecca Aylwards killer Josh Davies say he's innocent
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/parents-rebecca-aylward-killer-josh-1817274

I have read the book about Rebecca Aylward - it is far removed from Luke's case.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bye-Mam-Love-You-Daughters/dp/178219987X

Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #277 on: October 27, 2018, 11:14:53 AM »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline justsaying

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #278 on: October 27, 2018, 11:23:47 AM »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJy7kJzI3Vc

Not sure what this has to do with the cases being entirely different. There was a huge amount of evidence to convict Davies - Luke, as we all know, was convicted on purely circumstantial evidence.

Davies killed Rebecca for the price of a breakfast, he had also been poisoning her in the weeks leading up to her tragic death - clearly disturbed, and clearly guilty on the evidence presented.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 11:27:30 AM by justsaying »

Offline jixy

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #279 on: October 27, 2018, 12:49:23 PM »
http://longroadtojustice.com/?fbclid=IwAR2jERbpWdXPqRT99NE5zNuKmy9M0A9-96TNVWoHGWF4Onjs7ERbPIZjkNA

Sandra Lean has a new book out, seems to be about Luke Mitchell's case. I will have to wait till pay day to order but thought others might like to know.

Ive just ordered it. Wishing Sandra all the very best as always
you can disguise your face but you have forgotten your footprints !!! ....

Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #280 on: October 28, 2018, 08:26:27 AM »
Not sure what this has to do with the cases being entirely different. There was a huge amount of evidence to convict Davies - Luke, as we all know, was convicted on purely circumstantial evidence.

Davies killed Rebecca for the price of a breakfast, he had also been poisoning her in the weeks leading up to her tragic death - clearly disturbed, and clearly guilty on the evidence presented.

What leads a child to murder?

"What leads a child to kill is complex, said Mr Willis, but, more often than not, a poor upbringing has a big role to play.

Robert Kinscherff, a clinical psychologist and senior associate at the US’ National Centre for Mental Health and Juvenile Justice, said children that kill usually fall into one of three categories.

Speaking in 2014, to newspaper the Gazette, Mr Kinscherff said around 90 per cent of culprits were severely abused or had witnessed abuse such as between their parents; up to five per cent presented with mental health issues and four per cent had a long history of anti-social behaviour.

Dealing with young people who are accused of violent crimes presents an array of challenges distinct from the adult court system.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/experts-warn-of-triggers-that-can-turn-kids-into-killers-in-the-wake-of-an-11yearold-charged-with-murder/news-story/d714b2c5042a7e9059f3e506a8803052

Dr Elizabeth Yardley Professor of Criminology and Director of Birmingham City University’s Centre for Applied Criminology.
"Murderers are not simply evil aberrations who come into the world as homicidal ticking time bombs. Creating someone able and willing to take the life of another is a complex and lengthy process, in which a number of factors, individuals, groups and institutions play a role. Biology matters. Families matter. Communities and neighbourhoods matter. Schools, prisons and health services matter

However, one particular actor in the story of murder requires a closer look. Through examining 10 cases in Murderers and their Mothers, I have begun to unpick the complex fabric of the killer by pulling at the "mother" thread.

Why such an emphasis on mothers? What about the fathers? Isn't this sexist? These are questions that I have encountered a lot over the past few months. I argue that mothers matter more in the making of murderers because of the inherently gendered nature of society. We expect mothers to be selfless nurturers and primary caregivers - expectations we take for granted and apply to all. We defer to mothers, simply assuming that they know best and are prioritising the needs of their child, protecting them from harm both within and outside of the family. As long as mum is on the scene, surely everything will be alright?

It is clear from this analysis that three types of mother make a murderer - anti-mothers, uber-mothers and passive mothers..

For anti-mothers, problems begin within the family. They are often the victims of abuse and neglect themselves, survivors of brutal upbringings who never experienced a healthy family environment. Not all women who experience violent families will go on to recreate abusive homes. They are more likely to harm themselves than others, internalising their trauma as they struggle to wrestle back the control they never had as children. But a few women will repeat the cycle. These are the women for whom templates for family life have never been rewritten - their extended families and communities often reinforcing their experiences or denying them altogether. They turn from victims of brutalization to ruthless aggressors - the same kind of aggressors they had once despised.

For uber-mothers, problems begin outside of the family. They come from relatively stable, if not "traditional" nuclear family environments. However, they become acutely aware of society's expectations of families and motherhood from an early age. They are the victims of a discriminatory and arbitrary moral framework in which their families of origin fail to come up to scratch. As mothers, they are determined that their children will not be restricted by the same labels they believe held them back - illegitimacy, poverty, minority. They become mother-managers who carefully chart the childhood and adolescence of their sons and constantly struggle to keep them on course. They are the gatekeepers that hold off the outside world, protecting their child from scrutiny as their behaviour becomes increasingly deviant.

Passive mothers fear the judgement that society may impose on their children. These mothers have lived out their lives following the rules, not crossing the lines, fulfilling social expectations. They have always been quiet, passive, just ticking along. Therefore when their children begin to bend the rules and cross society's moral and legal boundaries the fear of labelling compels them to respond in the only way they know - denial and inaction. Sweep it under the carpet. It will go away. It's a phase. They will grow out of it.

Anti-mothers, uber-mothers and passive mothers thrive because of the considerable cultural value society places on privacy. How mothers bring up their children remains largely "none of our business". Most children from disadvantaged families who experience maltreatment never come onto the radar of social services. The middle class family is largely beyond reproach, protected by neoliberal concepts of freedom, independence and self-sufficiency. Privacy can be valuable as it allows us to restrict who has access to our family places and spaces and enables us to control who knows what about our families. However, it can also be the barrier behind which violence, abuse, neglect and denial can thrive - and the making of a murderer can begin.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-elizabeth-yardley-/making-of-murderers_b_9934416.html?guccounter=1
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 09:01:47 AM by Stephanie »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #281 on: October 28, 2018, 10:00:24 AM »
Ive just ordered it. Wishing Sandra all the very best as always

I firmly believe Sandra Lean's thesis is fundamentally flawed for a variety of reasons.

On that basis (and others) I question her integrity to look at the Luke Mitchell case objectively with regards factual innocence. Whilst I recognise the numerous flaws and failings by the police, and others, I have lurking doubts regarding the motives and agendas of those who are campaigning to overturn this conviction.

It's clear there's been honest and ethical debate on this case over the years as well as tactical and dishonest debate.

I favour the former.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:25:50 AM by Stephanie »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline justsaying

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #282 on: October 28, 2018, 10:24:04 AM »
What leads a child to murder?

"What leads a child to kill is complex, said Mr Willis, but, more often than not, a poor upbringing has a big role to play.

Robert Kinscherff, a clinical psychologist and senior associate at the US’ National Centre for Mental Health and Juvenile Justice, said children that kill usually fall into one of three categories.

Speaking in 2014, to newspaper the Gazette, Mr Kinscherff said around 90 per cent of culprits were severely abused or had witnessed abuse such as between their parents; up to five per cent presented with mental health issues and four per cent had a long history of anti-social behaviour.

Dealing with young people who are accused of violent crimes presents an array of challenges distinct from the adult court system.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/experts-warn-of-triggers-that-can-turn-kids-into-killers-in-the-wake-of-an-11yearold-charged-with-murder/news-story/d714b2c5042a7e9059f3e506a8803052

Dr Elizabeth Yardley Professor of Criminology and Director of Birmingham City University’s Centre for Applied Criminology.
"Murderers are not simply evil aberrations who come into the world as homicidal ticking time bombs. Creating someone able and willing to take the life of another is a complex and lengthy process, in which a number of factors, individuals, groups and institutions play a role. Biology matters. Families matter. Communities and neighbourhoods matter. Schools, prisons and health services matter

However, one particular actor in the story of murder requires a closer look. Through examining 10 cases in Murderers and their Mothers, I have begun to unpick the complex fabric of the killer by pulling at the "mother" thread.

Why such an emphasis on mothers? What about the fathers? Isn't this sexist? These are questions that I have encountered a lot over the past few months. I argue that mothers matter more in the making of murderers because of the inherently gendered nature of society. We expect mothers to be selfless nurturers and primary caregivers - expectations we take for granted and apply to all. We defer to mothers, simply assuming that they know best and are prioritising the needs of their child, protecting them from harm both within and outside of the family. As long as mum is on the scene, surely everything will be alright?

It is clear from this analysis that three types of mother make a murderer - anti-mothers, uber-mothers and passive mothers..

For anti-mothers, problems begin within the family. They are often the victims of abuse and neglect themselves, survivors of brutal upbringings who never experienced a healthy family environment. Not all women who experience violent families will go on to recreate abusive homes. They are more likely to harm themselves than others, internalising their trauma as they struggle to wrestle back the control they never had as children. But a few women will repeat the cycle. These are the women for whom templates for family life have never been rewritten - their extended families and communities often reinforcing their experiences or denying them altogether. They turn from victims of brutalization to ruthless aggressors - the same kind of aggressors they had once despised.

For uber-mothers, problems begin outside of the family. They come from relatively stable, if not "traditional" nuclear family environments. However, they become acutely aware of society's expectations of families and motherhood from an early age. They are the victims of a discriminatory and arbitrary moral framework in which their families of origin fail to come up to scratch. As mothers, they are determined that their children will not be restricted by the same labels they believe held them back - illegitimacy, poverty, minority. They become mother-managers who carefully chart the childhood and adolescence of their sons and constantly struggle to keep them on course. They are the gatekeepers that hold off the outside world, protecting their child from scrutiny as their behaviour becomes increasingly deviant.

Passive mothers fear the judgement that society may impose on their children. These mothers have lived out their lives following the rules, not crossing the lines, fulfilling social expectations. They have always been quiet, passive, just ticking along. Therefore when their children begin to bend the rules and cross society's moral and legal boundaries the fear of labelling compels them to respond in the only way they know - denial and inaction. Sweep it under the carpet. It will go away. It's a phase. They will grow out of it.

Anti-mothers, uber-mothers and passive mothers thrive because of the considerable cultural value society places on privacy. How mothers bring up their children remains largely "none of our business". Most children from disadvantaged families who experience maltreatment never come onto the radar of social services. The middle class family is largely beyond reproach, protected by neoliberal concepts of freedom, independence and self-sufficiency. Privacy can be valuable as it allows us to restrict who has access to our family places and spaces and enables us to control who knows what about our families. However, it can also be the barrier behind which violence, abuse, neglect and denial can thrive - and the making of a murderer can begin.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-elizabeth-yardley-/making-of-murderers_b_9934416.html?guccounter=1

So, according to this article, as a mother - you are damned if you and damned if you don't? It does not cover those families with, lets say, four children - two of which lead a life of crime and the other two lead a crime-free life, even though all four children have had the same upbringing - in this scenario you cannot blame the upbringing. This also proves that there are children from disadvantaged families that go on to lead relatively normal lives. There are children in prison who come from the best of families as well as the worst.

I still do not think the Davies case is the same as Luke's on an evidentiary basis - regardless of their upbringing.

Offline Nicholas

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #283 on: October 28, 2018, 10:27:25 AM »
So, according to this article, as a mother - you are damned if you and damned if you don't? It does not cover those families with, lets say, four children - two of which lead a life of crime and the other two lead a crime-free life, even though all four children have had the same upbringing - in this scenario you cannot blame the upbringing. This also proves that there are children from disadvantaged families that go on to lead relatively normal lives. There are children in prison who come from the best of families as well as the worst.

I still do not think the Davies case is the same as Luke's on an evidentiary basis - regardless of their upbringing.

Rather than critique the article why don't you look closer at the relationship of Luke Mitchell and his mother?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=487.0

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=504.0

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=546.0

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=67.0

And ask yourself why this topic appears to be avoided by those who are closet to the case?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:37:22 AM by Stephanie »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline justsaying

Re: Is Luke Mitchell guilty - your views
« Reply #284 on: October 28, 2018, 10:36:32 AM »
Rather than critique the article why don't you look closer at the relationship of Luke Mitchell and his mother?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=487.0

I do not think this would be helpful, my previous post explains why. Regardless of his relationship with his mother - this does not negate the fact that the case against Luke Mitchell is weak.