Lack of gunshot residue on Sheila's hands

[Holly Goodhead]

Seriously, Holl, you've never understood why JB left a loaded gun out? Bearing in mind that Ralph and/or June would have been horrified? And sorted it out?

According to RB's WS (see above) he and PB returned to WHF with June and NB for coffee after an OCP meeting on 18th July. RB asked NB to show him the new den, as they walked towards it NB picked up a rifle and ammo from the settle I assume to return to the den/gun cupboard.  There was nothing about being horrified.
 

How else would Sheila, totally uninterested and "ofay" with guns , have been able to use the gun so competently? The gun had to be loaded.

I don't think its  necessary to be "interested" in a piece of equipment to use it.  I didn't say SC was "ofay" with guns I said she would be ofay with where it was kept.  There was no particular skill involved with the tragedy at WHF.  All shots were close range.  The furthest was a little over 3'.  Closer than the plastic ducks I remember shooting at fairs as a child.  Why did the rifle have to be loaded?  JB claims he removed the bullet from the breech and the magazine from the rifle.  The full magazine was left near the rifle. 

THAT was Bamber's let-out clause. A loaded gun, left out, ignored by Ralph, just waiting for the boys to play with.

The rifle wasn't loaded according to JB's WS.  How do you know NB ignored the rifle?  He may well have returned it to its rightful place and imo probably did assuming JB left it where he says he did.  NB seemed to be a creature of habit where he had a routine of letting the dogs out before bed so I'm sure if the rifle and mag were by the settle he would simply have picked them up and returned them to the den/gun cupboard as he did above.

And just waiting for Sheila to go "crazy" with it. Except that....Sheila didn't know how to load the magazine.

How do we know it was waiting for Sheila to go "crazy" with it?  If SC was the perp there was nothing to stop her going to the den/gun cupboard?  How do you know SC didn't know how to load the magazine?

I've always said a test should have been set up with say a dozen novices and an experienced handler of firearms.  Let the novices observe the experienced handler prepare the rifle for fire without any verbal instructions and see how many times they have to observe before they can accomplish.  If the majority have to observe the experienced handler many times before they can accomplish then yes this would call into question whether SC had the ability to prepare the rifle for fire.  If most of the novices were able to accomplish after 2 or 3 observations then it could be argued it was an easy straight-forward action to observe and copy and that SC growing up on a farm where firearms were an everyday occurrence would have the necessary wherewithal to prepare the rifle for fire.   

[Holly Goodhead]

With the best will in the world, Holl, the ham anology is total bollox.

Why is it total bollox?

Why did he call Julie BEFORE he called the police?

I'm inclined to see JB calling JM BEFORE EP to see what she thought he should do.  JB said in his initial WS's NB phoned and said "Shelias gone crazy shes got the gun".  Nothing about please come over.  JB said the phone went dead and he tried to call back and got the engaged tone.  What was JB to think?  Why is dad calling me?  Does he want me to go over?  If so what does he want me to do?  Does he want me to call the police?  Etc, etc  In JM's WS of 8th Aug she states she had a good friendly relationship with all the family and was better able to communicate with SC than JB was (probably understandable as she was training to be a school teacher ie should have good inter-personal skills/communication skills etc).  JB was aware NB had a low regard for EP and liked to keep family affairs private.

[anglolawyer]

Why is it total bollox?

I'm inclined to see JB calling JM BEFORE EP to see what she thought he should do.  JB said in his initial WS's NB phoned and said "Shelias gone crazy shes got the gun".  Nothing about please come over.  JB said the phone went dead and he tried to call back and got the engaged tone.  What was JB to think?  Why is dad calling me?  Does he want me to go over?  If so what does he want me to do?  Does he want me to call the police?  Etc, etc  In JM's WS of 8th Aug she states she had a good friendly relationship with all the family and was better able to communicate with SC than JB was (probably understandable as she was training to be a school teacher ie should have good inter-personal skills/communication skills etc).  JB was aware NB had a low regard for EP and liked to keep family affairs private.

You actually believe this?   I suppose you have to in order to sustain your view of his innocence but I think you should stand back and look at it.   It was 3 in the morning.   Sheila's gone crazy with a gun, the phone goes dead suddenly and he can't get through again.   Why on earth would he waste valuable time waking Julie up to ask what she thought he should do?   How many reasonable options did he have to weigh?   Call the police, go back to bed, head over there himself.   That's it.   Why would she know better than him which of these to take?   Why would he think she knew better?

Once he decided to call the police, he had two more options - faff around looking up numbers of probably-closed or unmanned police stations, or call 999.   Maybe he should have called Julie back to ask for help on that one too ...

[Holly Goodhead]

You actually believe this?   I suppose you have to in order to sustain your view of his innocence but I think you should stand back and look at it.   It was 3 in the morning.   Sheila's gone crazy with a gun, the phone goes dead suddenly and he can't get through again.   Why on earth would he waste valuable time waking Julie up to ask what she thought he should do?   How many reasonable options did he have to weigh?   Call the police, go back to bed, head over there himself.   That's it.   Why would she know better than him which of these to take?   Why would he think she knew better?

Once he decided to call the police, he had two more options - faff around looking up numbers of probably-closed or unmanned police stations, or call 999.   Maybe he should have called Julie back to ask for help on that one too ...

Prove me wrong.   

So lets run with your scenario of a guilty JB and a complicit JM.  The plan is months in the making with the pair bouncing (instead of bonking as most young couples do) ideas off each other.  If as you say the phone call from NB to JB and his actions thereafter are too incredulous surely the pair would come up with a scenario that might have appeared more convincing.  Eg JB  commits the murders, as alleged by the prosecution, calls Bourtree before leaving WHF and cycles like the clappers back to Goldhanger.  Back at GH he changes and drives back to WHF.  Loiters around for a few minutes, see below, then trots off down the lane to the call box, or knocks the Foakes up, and calls 999 ambulance saying his father called saying his sister had gone crazy with a gun, he got dressed and raced over, upon arrival the dogs were barking and his father didn't appear which he thought was unusual,  looks through all the ground floor windows and sees his father slumped in his chair with his head toppled forward looks like he might be injured or even shot.  The pair could decide whether or not to include JM in the phone calls. 

No I remain utterly convinced JB is the victim of a terrible MoJ and JM's hand was forced by EP.  And there's no doubt in my mind I will eventually be proved right based on modern forensic science.

[Holly Goodhead]

You actually believe this?   I suppose you have to in order to sustain your view of his innocence but I think you should stand back and look at it.   It was 3 in the morning.   Sheila's gone crazy with a gun, the phone goes dead suddenly and he can't get through again.   Why on earth would he waste valuable time waking Julie up to ask what she thought he should do?   How many reasonable options did he have to weigh?   Call the police, go back to bed, head over there himself.   That's it.   Why would she know better than him which of these to take?   Why would he think she knew better?

Once he decided to call the police, he had two more options - faff around looking up numbers of probably-closed or unmanned police stations, or call 999.   Maybe he should have called Julie back to ask for help on that one too ...

PS when I first saw your reply on this thread I thought perhaps you wanted to comment on the fact it appears the jury were given misleading info at trial regarding SC's hand swabs.

[anglolawyer]

Prove me wrong.   

So lets run with your scenario of a guilty JB and a complicit JM.  The plan is months in the making with the pair bouncing (instead of bonking as most young couples do) ideas off each other.  If as you say the phone call from NB to JB and his actions thereafter are too incredulous surely the pair would come up with a scenario that might have appeared more convincing.  Eg JB  commits the murders, as alleged by the prosecution, calls Bourtree before leaving WHF and cycles like the clappers back to Goldhanger.  Back at GH he changes and drives back to WHF.  Loiters around for a few minutes, see below, then trots off down the lane to the call box, or knocks the Foakes up, and calls 999 ambulance saying his father called saying his sister had gone crazy with a gun, he got dressed and raced over, upon arrival the dogs were barking and his father didn't appear which he thought was unusual,  looks through all the ground floor windows and sees his father slumped in his chair with his head toppled forward looks like he might be injured or even shot.  The pair could decide whether or not to include JM in the phone calls. 

No I remain utterly convinced JB is the victim of a terrible MoJ and JM's hand was forced by EP.  And there's no doubt in my mind I will eventually be proved right based on modern forensic science.

In your plan he arrives first at the scene.   Its better if the police get there first to rule out any possibility that Bamber might have fiddled with anything.   That's the whole basis of his plan - that he was at home in bed when it happened.

[anglolawyer]

PS when I first saw your reply on this thread I thought perhaps you wanted to comment on the fact it appears the jury were given misleading info at trial regarding SC's hand swabs.

Happy to do so , HG.   That point was covered in detail in the 2002 appeal (with which I know you are familiar) and the judges said:

We have not the slightest doubt that the only failing by the police revealed in their dealings with the swabs are some relatively minor form completing mistakes by DS Davidson. On these relatively minor failings the whole edifice of a conspiracy theory was constructed and unsurprisingly when tested it came crashing down.

I would be fascinated to know on what ground you differ from the court.   I have to say, though, I don't find this an especially interesting part of the case.

[Holly Goodhead]

In your plan he arrives first at the scene.   Its better if the police get there first to rule out any possibility that Bamber might have fiddled with anything.   That's the whole basis of his plan - that he was at home in bed when it happened.

Hmmm some plan when tomorrow he will be celebrating his 30th anniversary behind bars!

[Holly Goodhead]

Happy to do so , HG.   That point was covered in detail in the 2002 appeal (with which I know you are familiar) and the judges said:

And this is what judges said about other high profile MOJ's before they were quashed:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3394.msg129016#msg129016

Happy to do so , HG.   That point was covered in detail in the 2002 appeal (with which I know you are familiar)
I would be fascinated to know on what ground you differ from the court.   I have to say, though, I don't find this an especially interesting part of the case.

Please be fascinated and read the thread.  Much of the case is boring and tedious but that's the nature of the beast with the devil in the detail.

[puglove]

Hmmm some plan when tomorrow he will be celebrating his 30th anniversary behind bars!

Can we have a party?

[anglolawyer]

Hmmm some plan when tomorrow he will be celebrating his 30th anniversary behind bars!

Yes, I know.   Shame, really.   The other cases of meticulously planned murders I'm familiar with are Scott Peterson anc Jodi Arias.   They also featured what might seem in hindsight to have been obvious howlers but Peterson nearly got away with it and but for some bad luck (a gun that jammed) so might Arias.   And even with all the world against him, Bamber nearly made it.   So his was a clever plan with Julie as its weak point.

[anglolawyer]

And this is what judges said about other high profile MOJ's before they were quashed:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3394.msg129016#msg129016

Please be fascinated and read the thread.  Much of the case is boring and tedious but that's the nature of the beast with the devil in the detail.

I have been reading on and off.   You want to know the exact make of the bullets and you have some thoughts about GSR.   That's it, isn't it?   Well, as GSR evidence is not front and centre of my belief in his guilt, I can afford to skim this bit.

[Myster]

Can we have a party?

  Impeccable timing as always... matey!  http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/

[puglove]

Impeccable timing as always... matey!  http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/

Oh dear, as trite and as badly written as ever - about as impressive as the fairycake bakeathon that nearly happened.

(I wonder how often Ralph called him "Matey" after the caravan park robbery?)

[Holly Goodhead]

Can we have a party?

I knew as soon as I hit send I was in for drubbing on that one