Did Jeremy have an answerphone?

[anglolawyer]

Yes, he did but said it wasn't on.

Great.   The prediction (that, if guilty, he must have had an answerphone) is true. 

[APRIL]

Great.   The prediction (that, if guilty, he must have had an answerphone) is true.

Anglolawyer HI. Thought you might be interested in this. In CAL'S book she says "Julie went to bed about quarter past eleven", SLEEPING!!!! -I mean, WOULD you, if your lover had phoned you earlier to say he was going to kill his entire family? Guess it takes all sorts- "until the phone rang in the early hours of the morning" Julie says "I got out of bed and went to the phone on the landing and said "Hello" I felt very dozy and I suppose I was only half awake"-personally, I think she was expecting that call- but the point I'm trying to make is that there is no mention of anyone else answering that call.

[Angelo222]

Anglolawyer HI. Thought you might be interested in this. In CAL'S book she says "Julie went to bed about quarter past eleven", SLEEPING!!!! -I mean, WOULD you, if your lover had phoned you earlier to say he was going to kill his entire family? Guess it takes all sorts- "until the phone rang in the early hours of the morning" Julie says "I got out of bed and went to the phone on the landing and said "Hello" I felt very dozy and I suppose I was only half awake"-personally, I think she was expecting that call- but the point I'm trying to make is that there is no mention of anyone else answering that call.

I completely disagree.  Julie wasn't expecting any call from Bamber, she told him to go back to bed.  Thing is though, he was never in bed.

As fas as the call from WHF to Bourtree Cottage is concerned all Jeremy Bamber had to do was make it just before he left the farmhouse and answer it ten minutes later on his arrival at Bourtree.

[Myster]

The only problem with 4 and 5 is that JM didn't pick up, Douglas Dale did.

Source?

According to Julie's 8/9th Sept. w/s, Douglas Dale answered the "3am" call...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5934.msg275556#msg275556

[Holly Goodhead]

According to Julie's 8/9th Sept. w/s, Douglas Dale answered the "3am" call...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5934.msg275556#msg275556

Thanks Myster saved me a task.  And yet in the CoA doc/DD's WS of 9th Sept (which I haven't actually seen) he makes no ref of taking the call just that he heard it  &%+((£

"307. Douglas Dale was in the house at the time. He made a statement on 9 September saying that he had heard the phone at about 3 a.m. He also gave that evidence at trial. But when cross-examined he said that it could have been about 3.30 a.m. He said that he had never looked at the time and had probably been told the time the next morning by others".

[Angelo222]

According to Julie's 8/9th Sept. w/s, Douglas Dale answered the "3am" call...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5934.msg275556#msg275556

Which meant that Jeremy had to have murdered everyone and left the farmhouse by 2.50am or thereabouts.

I think if Julie was lying in bed expecting a call from Bamber to tell her the dirty deed was done that she would have been ready to intercept the phonecall.  In my opinion she never expected to get a call from Bamber that morning because he never told her what he was about to do just in case she alerted the police

[anglolawyer]

It matters who answered the call.    My theory is busted if Dale did but now there seems to be doubt about it.   I have little doubt at all that if Bamber is guilty, Julie was his knowing accomplice.   I also believe, on the same assumption of guilt, that the call to Julie was a key part of the plan.

[Myster]

I just cannot believe that Julie was complicit with his plan to execute two harmless children, she was after all training to teach so had respect for them and kids in general, though obviously extremely naive, besotted with and out of her depth with Bamber, but definitely no Bonnie to his Clyde, imo.

[anglolawyer]

I just cannot believe that Julie was complicit with his plan to execute two harmless children, she was after all training to teach so had respect for them and kids in general, though obviously extremely naive, besotted with and out of her depth with Bamber, but definitely no Bonnie to his Clyde, imo.

I don't know why you are so sure given that she stayed with him knowing he was planning the murders and after he carried them out.   Doesn't thst cause you any concern about her character?

[John]

I don't know why you are so sure given that she stayed with him knowing he was planning the murders and after he carried them out.   Doesn't thst cause you any concern about her character?

My own view is that Julie never took Jerry seriously and simply put up with his ramblings about wanting to do away with his family.  Even after the murders Jerry was telling her that someone else did it for him, he feared that admitting to cold blooded murder would in reality turn Julie against him...he was right!

[anglolawyer]

My own view is that Julie never took Jerry seriously and simply put up with his ramblings about wanting to do away with his family.  Even after the murders Jerry was telling her that someone else did it for him, he feared that admitting to cold blooded murder would in reality turn Julie against him...he was right!

I think you have been fooled by a convenient conspiracy in which no one could explore Julie's role properly.   Not Jeremy, without destroying himself, not Julie, obviously and not the DPP who needed her in order to convict.   Her claim that she never really believed him is simply not credible and had the pokive not been so gullible and stupid as to need her evidence, she might very well have found herself in the dock beside him.

[APRIL]

Just WHAT has this woman got that men on BOTH forums rush to defend her? Was it, perhaps that she beguiled with her suggestive, post trial poses OR does this "dull and unattractive woman" possess a dangerous je ne sais quoi?

Angelo sounded almost apoplectic at my suggestion that Julie was expecting Jeremy's call. I can't believe she simply went to bed and slept AFTER it. HowEVER much my reason told me "Nah, he wouldn't" fear that he just might would have kept me awake, ESPECIALLY as he appeared to have rung specifically to say "It's tonight or never".

Myster, I'm so sorry if I've ruined your illusions of soft and gentle womanhood but it's an element in Julie that I always found missing and no one will convince me that she'd have said anything if he'd put something the size of the Krupps on her finger. A grasping and avaristic trait doesn't JUST develop so it's possible that whilst she didn't like thinking about him actually doing it, she was able to focus on what their life would be with all that wealth at his -THEIR- disposal. I'm inclined to think they may have been singing from the same hymn sheet.

John, I've always believed that you'd say it how it is but you seem not to be able to even look at the possibility of her being complicit.

Anglolawyer, I'm entirely with you, here and I find it a black but amusing irony that after 30 yrs they still have each other by the short and curlies. HE can't reveal what she knew without admitting his own guilt and as she has built a new life on her non complicity in the crime, it's possible a fragile house of cards could fall if she reveals exactly what  -albeit passive- influence she'd had in what happened.

[Myster]

Ooops, sorry... well, in my case I was mesmerized by her come-to-bed eyes. 

Seriously though, the thought that she could just accept her boyfriend murdering them all so they could both live the high life doesn't sit easy with me. I'm with John, in that she believed it was all a fantasy for JB and never thought for a moment that he'd carry it out. Wasn't she supposed to have told him something like - "You'll get the money eventually, if you wait" and "If you don't like them running your life, why not just leave?".
 
Who knows, maybe you're both right... which is why she's kept silent for thirty years and JB is loathe to mention much about her, although he has asked her in the past to "play the white (wo)man", whatever that's supposed to mean, and also why his wrath has been directed more at "the relatives" and "corrupt" Essex police.

[APRIL]

Ooops, sorry... well, in my case I was mesmerized by her come-to-bed eyes. 

Seriously though, the thought that she could just accept her boyfriend murdering them all so they could both live the high life doesn't sit easy with me. I'm with John, in that she believed it was all a fantasy for JB and never thought for a moment that he'd carry it out. Wasn't she supposed to have told him something like - "You'll get the money eventually, if you wait" and "If you don't like them running your life, why not just leave?".
 
Who knows, maybe you're both right... which is why she's kept silent for thirty years and JB is loathe to mention much about her, although he has asked her in the past to "play the white (wo)man", whatever that's supposed to mean, and also why his wrath has been directed more at "the relatives" and "corrupt" Essex police.

Oh, I totally agree Myster. It doesn't sit comfortably but when we consider weighing up how it was possible, we must remember that this same girl flashed her flesh, post trial, very willingly, adding for our further delectation the fact that Jeremy had taught her sex like never before. I feel there's a hardness about her which enabled her to turn any situation to her advantage.

[anglolawyer]

Just WHAT has this woman got that men on BOTH forums rush to defend her? Was it, perhaps that she beguiled with her suggestive, post trial poses OR does this "dull and unattractive woman" possess a dangerous je ne sais quoi?

Angelo sounded almost apoplectic at my suggestion that Julie was expecting Jeremy's call. I can't believe she simply went to bed and slept AFTER it. HowEVER much my reason told me "Nah, he wouldn't" fear that he just might would have kept me awake, ESPECIALLY as he appeared to have rung specifically to say "It's tonight or never".

Myster, I'm so sorry if I've ruined your illusions of soft and gentle womanhood but it's an element in Julie that I always found missing and no one will convince me that she'd have said anything if he'd put something the size of the Krupps on her finger. A grasping and avaristic trait doesn't JUST develop so it's possible that whilst she didn't like thinking about him actually doing it, she was able to focus on what their life would be with all that wealth at his -THEIR- disposal. I'm inclined to think they may have been singing from the same hymn sheet.

John, I've always believed that you'd say it how it is but you seem not to be able to even look at the possibility of her being complicit.

Anglolawyer, I'm entirely with you, here and I find it a black but amusing irony that after 30 yrs they still have each other by the short and curlies. HE can't reveal what she knew without admitting his own guilt and as she has built a new life on her non complicity in the crime, it's possible a fragile house of cards could fall if she reveals exactly what  -albeit passive- influence she'd had in what happened.

I am in complete agreement with this.

The 'je ne sais quoi' is probably no more than a willingness to participate in his life of crime.   She was unattractive and not especially bright so she must have had something.   It has been suggested on another board that the whole thing may have been her idea.   I'm not sure I would go that far but I wouldn't rule it out either.   If Bamber is guilty (I am still willing to contemplate the other possibility) then the whole thing (her behaviour and his) makes much more sense if she was his accomplice than otherwise.