Author Topic: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?  (Read 4077 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« on: October 10, 2015, 03:09:37 PM »
I know next to nothing about the above other than what I've read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-interest_immunity

In relation to the WHF case when was the order applied pre or post trial? 

If anything exists that was/is harmful to the prosecution and helpful to the defence then why not simply destroy it?  It seems pretty clear from the stationery that witness statements are not numbered so if say for example JM maintained initially JB was innocent then why not just destroy the docs?  If tape recordings exist of phone calls and other recordings eg if JB had his home bugged then again why not simply destroy?  Blood based exhibits were destroyed eg victims' nightwear in 1996 despite, I believe, a court order preventing such and this didn't seem to cause much of a problem. 

It seems a PII order requires a very senior body to sanction?.  If they are prepared to sanction surely it would be safer to say get shot of it? 

Has PII being applied to other criminal cases? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2015, 06:09:08 PM »
I know next to nothing about the above other than what I've read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-interest_immunity

In relation to the WHF case when was the order applied pre or post trial? 

If anything exists that was/is harmful to the prosecution and helpful to the defence then why not simply destroy it?  It seems pretty clear from the stationery that witness statements are not numbered so if say for example JM maintained initially JB was innocent then why not just destroy the docs?  If tape recordings exist of phone calls and other recordings eg if JB had his home bugged then again why not simply destroy?  Blood based exhibits were destroyed eg victims' nightwear in 1996 despite, I believe, a court order preventing such and this didn't seem to cause much of a problem. 

It seems a PII order requires a very senior body to sanction?.  If they are prepared to sanction surely it would be safer to say get shot of it? 

Has PII being applied to other criminal cases?

It was used to prevent Essex Police being opened up to public ridicule following events which occurred after the scene had been secured.  As you have already pointed out Holly, this measure is not taken lightly, the material covered by PII must not relate to the investigation otherwise the Defence can argue unlawful impediment to a fair trial.  I don't believe Jeremy's barrister made any such claim?

My own view is that PII should not have been applied in this case as it was invoked simply in order to cover the antics of some very unprofessional police officers.



« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 06:13:17 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline anglolawyer

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2015, 08:00:40 PM »
My pet theory is that among the documents protected by PII are some dealing with immunity afforded to Julie.   Not immunity for the piffling cheque fraud and Osea Road burglary, but for murder.   Pure speculation, of course.   It would be fascinating to have the veil lifted.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2015, 06:06:59 PM »
It was used to prevent Essex Police being opened up to public ridicule following events which occurred after the scene had been secured.  As you have already pointed out Holly, this measure is not taken lightly, the material covered by PII must not relate to the investigation otherwise the Defence can argue unlawful impediment to a fair trial.  I don't believe Jeremy's barrister made any such claim?

My own view is that PII should not have been applied in this case as it was invoked simply in order to cover the antics of some very unprofessional police officers.

I'm not really understanding you John with regard to "events" and "unprofessional police officers"? 

Is there any truth in claims of WHF used as a training exercise with a large number of officers sent in while victims were in situ? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2015, 06:25:45 PM »
My pet theory is that among the documents protected by PII are some dealing with immunity afforded to Julie.   Not immunity for the piffling cheque fraud and Osea Road burglary, but for murder.   Pure speculation, of course.   It would be fascinating to have the veil lifted.

Just clocked this in the OS:

http://twitpic.com/9cxwkf

There are other bits n pieces too but I don't have time to read them right now

I am very confused by PII in this case.  Part of me thinks if there's anything that has the potential to make JB's conviction unsafe it would be destroyed rather than held under PII.  What senior bod is going to sign off a PII thus putting his/her neck potentially on the line when it seems anything incriminating could just as easily be destroyed?  There again why the need for a PII?  Are there other examples of criminal cases where PII has been applied?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline anglolawyer

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2015, 12:41:49 PM »
Just clocked this in the OS:

http://twitpic.com/9cxwkf

There are other bits n pieces too but I don't have time to read them right now

I am very confused by PII in this case.  Part of me thinks if there's anything that has the potential to make JB's conviction unsafe it would be destroyed rather than held under PII.  What senior bod is going to sign off a PII thus putting his/her neck potentially on the line when it seems anything incriminating could just as easily be destroyed?  There again why the need for a PII?  Are there other examples of criminal cases where PII has been applied?
Umm, what is 'twit pic'?

I can only make educated guesses about PII.   I am not a member of the establishment but I know something of its culture, especially the legal culture.   The English have a hypocritical approach to so many things and one of them is the plea bargain.   We deprecate plea bargaining.   So unseemly.   And yet, so convenient and useful sometimes too.   That creates a problem and the problem is solved by pretending that something that is in fact plea bargaining is no such thing.   When I was in articles it happened from time to time that a client told us he was not guilty but that he wanted to plead guilty anyway, or that a client wanted to know in advance what his sentence would be if he pleaded guilty.   This would entail a visit to the judge's chambers by the barrister at which the judge would give 'an indication' in the form of a hint as to what s/he would be likely to do if the client copped a plea.   When I learned that I was entitled to attend these meetings I exercised my right to do so.   I found myself in the judge's room with 10-12 bewigged and gowned barristers, there for the day's stitch ups.   They marked my presence, which was unusual, but were not flustered by it and just got on with business.   The judge spoke in code.   He did not say - your client will get 6 months, yours a fine etc.   He was cryptic.   And all because of this weird feature of English life in which plain speaking is anathema and hypocrisy is all.

The legal establishment used also to deprecate the American fondness for no win no fee agreements.   Such a thing could not possibly be right as it would give the saintly, detached lawyer an interest in the outcome.   Leaving aside the fact that said lawyer always had such an interest, there came a time when the government decided it wanted to severely restrict access to legal aid and to replace it where possible with no win no fee.   But, although that meant what had once been anathema was now going to be OK, the English distaste for such things still found expression in the 'conditional fee agreement.   Somehow, this was morally superior to the contingency fee agreement, even though you would need an electron microscope to spot the difference.

Yet another example related to the plea bargain is the fiction that there is no penalty for pleading not guilty and losing.   Instead, the defendant gets a 'credit' for pleading guilty.   In this way we can comfort ourselves that all decisions to plead guilty are freely made and not at all the result of undue pressure resulting from the prospect of a heavy sentence.

Anyway, coming back to Bamber, that background ought to give an idea of the kind of thinking that goes on among those who pull the levers of power.   The COLP report said they found 'no evidence' of any deal between Mugford and the DPP.   What a nice choice of phrase.   They did not record any denial of such an arrangement by the DPP>   They said they found 'no evidence' of it.   I can tell you as a criminal lawyer of some experience that the facts disclosed by her statements to the police scream out that she was involved in the murders or, at least, in covering them up.   The police and the DPP knew there was no chance of convicting Bamber without her and equally knew they could not have her evidence if they prosecuted her beside him.  So they made a deal but in a way that will have left as little trace as possible and any trace it did leave will have been covered by PII.   It's not in the public interest for the great unwashed to know how their masters operate.   We did not go far enough in 1649 I'm afraid and must accept the consequences.

The same hypocrisy btw. is what prevents them destroying the papers that prove what I'm suggesting.   Only criminals and corrupt types do such things.

That's my theory, anyway.   It's only a theory and might well be totally wrong.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 12:45:10 PM by anglolawyer »

Offline APRIL

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2015, 04:09:20 PM »
Umm, what is 'twit pic'?

I can only make educated guesses about PII.   I am not a member of the establishment but I know something of its culture, especially the legal culture.   The English have a hypocritical approach to so many things and one of them is the plea bargain.   We deprecate plea bargaining.   So unseemly.   And yet, so convenient and useful sometimes too.   That creates a problem and the problem is solved by pretending that something that is in fact plea bargaining is no such thing.   When I was in articles it happened from time to time that a client told us he was not guilty but that he wanted to plead guilty anyway, or that a client wanted to know in advance what his sentence would be if he pleaded guilty.   This would entail a visit to the judge's chambers by the barrister at which the judge would give 'an indication' in the form of a hint as to what s/he would be likely to do if the client copped a plea.   When I learned that I was entitled to attend these meetings I exercised my right to do so.   I found myself in the judge's room with 10-12 bewigged and gowned barristers, there for the day's stitch ups.   They marked my presence, which was unusual, but were not flustered by it and just got on with business.   The judge spoke in code.   He did not say - your client will get 6 months, yours a fine etc.   He was cryptic.   And all because of this weird feature of English life in which plain speaking is anathema and hypocrisy is all.

The legal establishment used also to deprecate the American fondness for no win no fee agreements.   Such a thing could not possibly be right as it would give the saintly, detached lawyer an interest in the outcome.   Leaving aside the fact that said lawyer always had such an interest, there came a time when the government decided it wanted to severely restrict access to legal aid and to replace it where possible with no win no fee.   But, although that meant what had once been anathema was now going to be OK, the English distaste for such things still found expression in the 'conditional fee agreement.   Somehow, this was morally superior to the contingency fee agreement, even though you would need an electron microscope to spot the difference.

Yet another example related to the plea bargain is the fiction that there is no penalty for pleading not guilty and losing.   Instead, the defendant gets a 'credit' for pleading guilty.   In this way we can comfort ourselves that all decisions to plead guilty are freely made and not at all the result of undue pressure resulting from the prospect of a heavy sentence.

Anyway, coming back to Bamber, that background ought to give an idea of the kind of thinking that goes on among those who pull the levers of power.   The COLP report said they found 'no evidence' of any deal between Mugford and the DPP.   What a nice choice of phrase.   They did not record any denial of such an arrangement by the DPP>   They said they found 'no evidence' of it.   I can tell you as a criminal lawyer of some experience that the facts disclosed by her statements to the police scream out that she was involved in the murders or, at least, in covering them up.   The police and the DPP knew there was no chance of convicting Bamber without her and equally knew they could not have her evidence if they prosecuted her beside him.  So they made a deal but in a way that will have left as little trace as possible and any trace it did leave will have been covered by PII.   It's not in the public interest for the great unwashed to know how their masters operate.   We did not go far enough in 1649 I'm afraid and must accept the consequences.

The same hypocrisy btw. is what prevents them destroying the papers that prove what I'm suggesting.   Only criminals and corrupt types do such things.

That's my theory, anyway.   It's only a theory and might well be totally wrong.


I concur 100% with what you say of Julie. However, there are those who hold her up as an example of the excellence to which all women may attempt, but will never, other than Eleanor Roosevelt, attain. Such is their conviction of her goodness and bravery, they'll probably put her name forward for beatification!!!!!

Offline anglolawyer

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2015, 04:36:11 PM »

I concur 100% with what you say of Julie. However, there are those who hold her up as an example of the excellence to which all women may attempt, but will never, other than Eleanor Roosevelt, attain. Such is their conviction of her goodness and bravery, they'll probably put her name forward for beatification!!!!!
Well, while I would not go that far, I do see her as someone who decided to turn over a new leaf.   A rare exception, perhaps, as leopards generally do not change their spots.   However, I think she stared into the abyss, was frightened by what she saw and pulled all the way back into the normal, reasonably decent world you and I inhabit.   Thus she fell over herself to confess her crimes and make recompense - all except the big one.   In that, she was lucky that a conspiracy to 'never mention the war' blanketed all concerned, including Bamber himself, for different but nonetheless clear and easily-grasped reasons.

Offline Myster

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2015, 04:54:01 PM »

I concur 100% with what you say of Julie. However, there are those who hold her up as an example of the excellence to which all women may attempt, but will never, other than Eleanor Roosevelt, attain. Such is their conviction of her goodness and bravery, they'll probably put her name forward for beatification!!!!!

Calm down, dear... it's only a theory!  I can't think for the life of me who these idolisers are that you're on about.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why the use of Public Interest Immunity (PII)?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 06:34:03 PM »
I know next to nothing about the above other than what I've read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-interest_immunity

In relation to the WHF case when was the order applied pre or post trial? 

If anything exists that was/is harmful to the prosecution and helpful to the defence then why not simply destroy it?  It seems pretty clear from the stationery that witness statements are not numbered so if say for example JM maintained initially JB was innocent then why not just destroy the docs?  If tape recordings exist of phone calls and other recordings eg if JB had his home bugged then again why not simply destroy?  Blood based exhibits were destroyed eg victims' nightwear in 1996 despite, I believe, a court order preventing such and this didn't seem to cause much of a problem. 

It seems a PII order requires a very senior body to sanction?.  If they are prepared to sanction surely it would be safer to say get shot of it? 

Has PII being applied to other criminal cases?

There was never any PII Court order.  This is just one of many lies that Bamber supporters have made.

I will explain things 1 last time:

1) Under disclosure a criminal suspect is entitled to:
A) A list of all potential witnesses that will be called to testify and generally what they will claim
B) All evidence that is incriminatory
C) All evidence that is exculpatory

They are not entitled to receive every document generated in an investigation.

2) Jeremy decided that since criminal law disclosure law did not entitle him to everything he would try to use Freedom Of Information law to get everything generated in the case.

3) One of the factors that goes into the analysis of whether documents can be released under the Freedom of Information act is and inquiry weighing whether it is in the public interest.  This weighing has been grossly misrepresented as police hiding behind a protective court PII order.   

« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:43:49 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli