My thoughts on the bamber murders by Sherlock

[rotti]

theory on bambers murder plan.and what could have happened.the night before the murders bamber took the rifle loaded it and hid it in the scullery.after that he hid the bedroom phone and left at 10pm .as he entered the farm from the widow he immediately took the rifle and hid the kitchen phone.than crept to his parents bedroom.but the dog sensed a presence and started barking neville  and june were awake when bamber burst in firing.june was a sitting target but neville was up probably stood by his side of the bed when receiving his shots.there is no doubt June would have been screaming and while bomber tryed to Finnish her to stop the screaming Neville barged past him heading for kitchen the only reason he made it past bomber was because of brave Junes screams.he identified Junes screaming as more of a threat than his wounded father who with the non fatal shots could not make a sound because of the lip and jaw shots he received.when Neville reached the kitchen there was no phone it had already been hidden plus bamber was on him to quick.bamber fought with brave father and mercilessly beat him unconscious.he may have been wearing a wet suit . he took more bullets out of the shotgun cartridge carrier he was wearing .which the raid team member saw hanging up in the stairway leading from kitchen.and shot neville 4 times every one of these last 4 head shots would have immediately fatal .he than went upstairs with a full magazine to deal with the most important person in his plan.you see for his whole plan to work his sister could not be beaten or shot any other place on her body except the suicide shot head or neck.there for  sheila was fast asleep under medication in her bedroom.he could not have her awake and disobeying or screaming or trying to escape because he would not have been able to make the suicide shot to stop. her as with junes case several shots.he shot Sheila while she slept once in the bed than immediately picked her up in both arms tucked her head down and to the right holding her tight so no blood could drip down it would only drip on her and not the floor.he then carried her to the main bedroom and placed her over or near the droplet's of blood from neville were.while placing her down he could sense she was still alive .he had no choice but to shoot her again.he did not want anyone to know neville was shot upstairs.after that he shot the twins as he probably predicted they were fast asleep.he than began to stage the scene  he put the rifle in place moved a bible in place .placed a box ammo on the side and replaced the phone .he did not phone home from whitehouse farm.because having paid his own telephone bill in the past he would have known the police would not be able to prove if the call  was made or not.he then wiped himself down with a teeshirt or something  similar and than left the house via the self catching latch window.what he bought to the house that morning or what he took away no one knows.

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[scipio_usmc]

theory on bambers murder plan.and what could have happened.the night before the murders bamber took the rifle loaded it and hid it in the scullery.after that he hid the bedroom phone and left at 10pm .as he entered the farm from the widow he immediately took the rifle and hid the kitchen phone.than crept to his parents bedroom.but the dog sensed a presence and started barking neville  and june were awake when bamber burst in firing.june was a sitting target but neville was up probably stood by his side of the bed when receiving his shots.there is no doubt June would have been screaming and while bomber tryed to Finnish her to stop the screaming Neville barged past him heading for kitchen the only reason he made it past bomber was because of brave Junes screams.he identified Junes screaming as more of a threat than his wounded father who with the non fatal shots could not make a sound because of the lip and jaw shots he received.when Neville reached the kitchen there was no phone it had already been hidden plus bamber was on him to quick.bamber fought with brave father and mercilessly beat him unconscious.he may have been wearing a wet suit . he took more bullets out of the shotgun cartridge carrier he was wearing .which the raid team member saw hanging up in the stairway leading from kitchen.and shot neville 4 times every one of these last 4 head shots would have immediately fatal .he than went upstairs with a full magazine to deal with the most important person in his plan.you see for his whole plan to work his sister could not be beaten or shot any other place on her body except the suicide shot head or neck.there for  sheila was fast asleep under medication in her bedroom.he could not have her awake and disobeying or screaming or trying to escape because he would not have been able to make the suicide shot to stop. her as with junes case several shots.he shot Sheila while she slept once in the bed than immediately picked her up in both arms tucked her head down and to the right holding her tight so no blood could drip down it would only drip on her and not the floor.he then carried her to the main bedroom and placed her over or near the droplet's of blood from neville were.while placing her down he could sense she was still alive .he had no choice but to shoot her again.he did not want anyone to know neville was shot upstairs.after that he shot the twins as he probably predicted they were fast asleep.he than began to stage the scene  he put the rifle in place moved a bible in place .placed a box ammo on the side and replaced the phone .he did not phone home from whitehouse farm.because having paid his own telephone bill in the past he would have known the police would not be able to prove if the call  was made or not.he then wiped himself down with a teeshirt or something  similar and than left the house via the self catching latch window.what he bought to the house that morning or what he took away no one knows.

1) The phone was removed from the bedroom by the Monday afternoon because it was seen in the kitchen by Pike at that time.  It was removed in anticipation of the murders either Sunday or Monday. Jeremy was not sure when he would do the killing during the visit. 

2) Why would June have to have screamed?  The first shot she suffered was likely the one to her head and for that point forward she would be out of sorts.  She may never have fully awakened prior to being shot in the head.

3) The evidence proves Sheila was shot while she was seated. The first shot did not kill her so a second shot was fired.  She was subsequently dragged flat so that the gun could be placed on her body.

[rotti]

hi why remove the bedroom phone when you dont know when you will commit  the crime.what would stop neville replacing the bedroom phone for the office one or the kitchen one.he would have done .so he could have access to one at night .i think if the phone had disappeared before the evening of the murders it would have been replaced with another.what bamber was up to that evening at the farm no one can say.its just a theory .                                                 why would june not scream.any woman would if confronted by a rifle shooting maniac shooting her .its natural human behaviour for a woman.i think bamber would have had some kind of mask on .even more frightening for june .i dont think june was shot in the head first.because she could not have raised her arm or tucked her legs up in a defencive manner .i dont believe a half asleep  person could take a head shot and than fully wake up and crawl about.as for the blood staining on shelea .i suggest if you carry a person in the manner i have stated you will get the same blood staining you see on shelea night dress.if she had been sat up at the time she was shot than moved .you would surely see blood on the front and left side of her night dress.you dont.its a theory and i would like a blood splatter expert to look at those photos and give his opinion

[adam]

Interesting that you believe Sheila was carried. Certainly possible as she  almost certainly did not wake until it was her turn.

It's possible he shot her in bed while she was asleep.  If no blood would splatter onto the bed and no evidence that she had been carried would be left, then why not ?

Being asleep and then shot would mean she would be totally immobilised. Bamber could easily carry someone of Sheila's size a few feet.

She may have been carried some of the way. He may have attempted to persuade her to move from the bedroom or at least get out of bed and move a few feet. Then carried her a few feet across the main bedroom floor, where he had left the gun, before Sheila had fully woken and seen June.

Either way explains the lack of June's blood on her hands and feet.

[adam]

If he was wearing a wetsuit, it would have been underneath normal clothes. Wetsuits are quite thick material and would have protected his skin.

[adam]

I doubt that he hid the kitchen phone. He believed no one would get downstairs. He may have taken it off the hook to disable all phones in WHF.

[Holly Goodhead]

If he was wearing a wetsuit, it would have been underneath normal clothes. Wetsuits are quite thick material and would have protected his skin.

I wouldn't say a wetsuit afforded any more protection than all those jumpers he seemed fond of wearing on top of a shirt and underneath his blouson    Anymore layering with a wetsuit and I reckon he would struggle to get through the window and ride the bike!

[Holly Goodhead]

theory on bambers murder plan.and what could have happened.the night before the murders bamber took the rifle loaded it and hid it in the scullery.after that he hid the bedroom phone and left at 10pm .as he entered the farm from the widow he immediately took the rifle and hid the kitchen phone.than crept to his parents bedroom.but the dog sensed a presence and started barking neville  and june were awake when bamber burst in firing.june was a sitting target but neville was up probably stood by his side of the bed when receiving his shots.there is no doubt June would have been screaming and while bomber tryed to Finnish her to stop the screaming Neville barged past him heading for kitchen the only reason he made it past bomber was because of brave Junes screams.he identified Junes screaming as more of a threat than his wounded father who with the non fatal shots could not make a sound because of the lip and jaw shots he received.when Neville reached the kitchen there was no phone it had already been hidden plus bamber was on him to quick.bamber fought with brave father and mercilessly beat him unconscious.he may have been wearing a wet suit . he took more bullets out of the shotgun cartridge carrier he was wearing .which the raid team member saw hanging up in the stairway leading from kitchen.and shot neville 4 times every one of these last 4 head shots would have immediately fatal .he than went upstairs with a full magazine to deal with the most important person in his plan.you see for his whole plan to work his sister could not be beaten or shot any other place on her body except the suicide shot head or neck.there for  sheila was fast asleep under medication in her bedroom.he could not have her awake and disobeying or screaming or trying to escape because he would not have been able to make the suicide shot to stop. her as with junes case several shots.he shot Sheila while she slept once in the bed than immediately picked her up in both arms tucked her head down and to the right holding her tight so no blood could drip down it would only drip on her and not the floor.he then carried her to the main bedroom and placed her over or near the droplet's of blood from neville were.while placing her down he could sense she was still alive .he had no choice but to shoot her again.he did not want anyone to know neville was shot upstairs.after that he shot the twins as he probably predicted they were fast asleep.he than began to stage the scene  he put the rifle in place moved a bible in place .placed a box ammo on the side and replaced the phone .he did not phone home from whitehouse farm.because having paid his own telephone bill in the past he would have known the police would not be able to prove if the call  was made or not.he then wiped himself down with a teeshirt or something  similar and than left the house via the self catching latch window.what he bought to the house that morning or what he took away no one knows.

But why move Sheila?  Why not stage the suicide in her own bed?  You forgot to move the cartridge case from SC's room to the main bedroom.

Why would he go to the trouble of wearing a wetsuit to protect himself from debris but then wear the ammo carrier which I believe is made of cloth and could potentially pick up debris/incriminating evidence?

How would he know from paying his own phone bill in the past that the police would be unable to prove whether or not a phone call was made?  Had he paid his own phone bills in the past?  Think he had just rented rooms in the past and the farm paid his phone bill at the cottage.

[scipio_usmc]

hi why remove the bedroom phone when you dont know when you will commit  the crime.what would stop neville replacing the bedroom phone for the office one or the kitchen one.he would have done .so he could have access to one at night .i think if the phone had disappeared before the evening of the murders it would have been replaced with another.what bamber was up to that evening at the farm no one can say.

He wasn't sure when he would kill them during the visit he could have done it Sunday night, Monday night, any night they were there...we don't know whether he waited till the 6th to build up his nerve, because that day he was pissed off enough to follow through or what.

He didn't just replace the kitchen phone with the bedroom phone he hid the kitchen phone.  Thus putting the bedroom phone back would result in having no phone in the kitchen.  They used the kitchen phone way more so would not do that.

If he successfully killed Nevill in the bedroom he would have put the bedroom phone back and tried to make it look like Nevill made the call from there then was attacked.  But since he died in the kitchen he didn't put it back ad tried to make it look like he made a call from the kitchen then was attacked. DCI Jones fell hook, line and sinker. But later it was discovered he was shot in the bedroom first and that things proceeded to the kitchen after this.  This was a game changer since Nevill could not speak after the attack in the bedroom so could not have told Jeremy anything over the phone.

its just a theory .                                                 why would june not scream.any woman would if confronted by a rifle shooting maniac shooting her .its natural human behaviour for a woman.i think bamber would have had some kind of mask on .even more frightening for june .i dont think june was shot in the head first.because she could not have raised her arm or tucked her legs up in a defencive manner .i dont believe a half asleep  person could take a head shot and than fully wake up and crawl about.as for the blood staining on shelea .

Half asleep people are not cognizant of everything going on around them fully.  Clearly the shot to the head didn't prevent June from getting out of bed and walking around it before walking back to the door and collapsing.  Surely she was able to move her arms and legs in the bed after such since she was able to get up and walk around.  So your position makes no sense.  Women scream when she hope to summon help.  Sometimes they are too scared to scream. Nevill was already there int he thick of it she had no need to scream to summon help and was likely not fully in her right mind anyway after the shot to the head.

Someone in Nevill's position would say something like come here you son of a bitch I'm going to ring your neck but he couldn't speak after his jaw wound which severed his vocal chord.

i suggest if you carry a person in the manner i have stated you will get the same blood staining you see on shelea night dress.if she had been sat up at the time she was shot than moved .you would surely see blood on the front and left side of her night dress.you dont.its a theory and i would like a blood splatter expert to look at those photos and give his opinion

Blood experts all say the same thing- that the staining to her dress indicates she was seated when shot and thus the blood leaked down her shoulder, arm and breast area. Your assessments are based on ignoring the expert testimony. You seem to be unaware of the various assessments including by MacDonnell. She was seated the blood leaked down her then she was subsequently moved flat.  This is one of the reasons why we know she wasn't lying flat when shot like Jeremy hoped to convey after he moved her body flat and stuck the gun across her body.

[rotti]

hi i think the wet suit was protection against blood evidence.after wiping himself down and leaving the scene he could get home have a hot shower and all blood evidence would go down plughole.no scratches would be on his body.ds jones asked bamber about the lack of towels in his bath room the morning of the murders.but he could just as well bought a change of clothing with him and simply changed before leaving farmhouse.you say 2 jumpers a blouson.i suggest you have no proof whatsoever what he was wearing the night or morning of the murders.you only know what he turned up in at the farm at 3am.unless some one from the grave told you it was 2 jumpers and a blouson.for you to add a stupid cartoon caption when you dont know yourself is laughable.hi adam i only think she was shot in bed because of the blood pattern on her nightdress .i am no expert but the blood on the nighty  doesnt look right for a suicide.if she pushed the trigger while sat on the floor her head would immediately fall backwards the blood would run down the side of the neck and pool on the carpet near her neck .and had she sot herself with her back proped against Neville's bedside cabinet she would have blood on the front and left side of her night .but theres none not even a speck.i am sure we have all carried a sleeping child say a 8 yearold you put 1 arm beneath the knee joints and the other just below the neck and we make sure the head is forward and tucked into our body .not hanging back .now apply that to the photo of Sheila.if she had been shot in bed and than bamber carried her from the left hand bed in her room .than the blood pattern is spot on .i favour him hiding the kitchen phone because he thought if something goes wrong and 3 adults start fleeing in different directions their would not find a phone to tell anyone its bamber doing the killing i dont think he would have took that chance.mine are all theories .think like bamber would have

[adam]

Well if there would be no evidence left that he shot Sheila in her bed, then that is the best option. He could simply move the bullet casing next to Sheila in the main bedroom.

One bullet in the neck while she slept and then lift her. She would be immobilised while she slept. So couldn't do anything even if she woke while being carried for the ten seconds it would take Bamber to move her.

The way you explained he would lift her has always been my view. He could easily lift her from the bed in that way.

The advantage of shooting Sheila while she slept, is it gives Bamber more time to aim a fatal shot. His first shot was right in the neck and immobilised her, but didn't kill her. Would it have killed her slowly  ? Bamber couldn't take that risk and shot her again. This time in the main bedroom.

[rotti]

hi . scipio usmc firstly you .john .and admin are master sleuths.and much respected by me the 3 of you dont give bamber a leg to stand on .do you think neville a god fearing man ex magistrate would say son of a bitch .i think maybe b........ would be right. neville only made it past bamber  because of something june was doing if he had run out of bullets while neville was still in room he would have started his attack there and than and neville would not have made it past him.what was june doing that bamber had to stop her  immediately .certainly not trying to escape she was to wounded to make any sudden movements and she certainly wasnt reaching for a weapon.she might have been shouting and screaming.bamber didnt want her screams to wake shelia.because shelia the most important victim was to be killed using a suicide shot.we will never know. i think shelia was moved to the bedroom to cover any signs of neville being shot there .bamber did not want anyone to think neville was first shot in the bedroom.people would ask why after being shot in lip jaw elbow and shoulder he didnt tackle shelia in the bedroom after she  emptied the magazine.also had he not thought that he would have placed shelia near the twin to make it look more believable .he thought if she had been found in her own room the police might smell a rat .any one suggesting bamber had never seen a telephone bill in his life .needs a drugs test.a phone bill would show the number of calls but not the date and time nor the number called

[Myster]

for you to add a stupid cartoon caption when you dont know yourself is laughable.

And poor Holly thought being a moderator was going to be an easy job. 

Never mind Holls... 18 other people liked it! 

[rotti]

in the seconds it takes to fire 10 rounds maybe neville made it downstairs he certainly wasnt in the thick of it or he wouldnt have left the bedroom .any other way to pass bamber in the bedroom and enter the kitchen is impossible junes screams had to be silenced .giving neville time to exit even if junes was shot in the head while in bed .it wasnt her voice box so she could and would have screamed. i would love to know how long she would have to be seated upright to accumulate that amount of blood that can be seen on shelia left side .also nobody sleeps flat on a bed people have pillows and some have 2 or 3 .if shelia was sleeping with her head raised when shot .blood would match the bloodpattern  trail on her nightie .you can wear a cartridge Carrier  round your waist and facing the back of your body so it would be similar to taking cartridges out of a back pocket .no  debris or blood would get on it in that position.if it did get bloody he would have took it with him and not hang it in the kitchen stairway.if there was blood on shelias bedsheets he would simply change them and take blooded one with him.what he took away with him that morning no one knows .he staged the scene at the caravan office its reasonable to assume he done the same at farmhouse .but what we dont know.i think he had a wetsuit. jacket. trainers. scarf. with a mask in his pocket and rode to whitehouse farm.

[rotti]

also any tough questions i get .i will refer them  to the 3 masters scipio usmc.john.admin.iam a amateur and looking at the case with a criminal mind.as  bamber would have done