Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[Jean-Pierre]

Now JP, as you have spent presumably the last couple of hours looking up that. What don't you now give examples of brutality by UK police forces in the same period, as a comparison.

What you and your fellows want to do is stick the lkabel of 'torture' on the PJ for very obvious reasons.

Now was Cipriano's brother 'tortured' to exact a confession ?

Incredibly there are more important things!  And no - it took roughly five minutes to find those few references.

Many other countries have a poor record too - but the fact that it may be or have been common practice does not make it any more acceptable.  And that is on both a human rights level and also on a law enforcement level. 

It may be thought that beating a suspect up until they confess is an effective way of solving crimes (and comments on this forum seem to suggest that many hold this view) but there are clear flaws in it as a method - not least of which is that it does not lead to the right people being convicted and locked up.

Stephen - I think by now i "get" that you hate, detest, loath and despise the McCanns but you do seem to be seeing everything through that same lens - even to the point of denying the principle that police brutality and torture is totally unacceptable in a civilised society.   

Its very sad.

[Jean-Pierre]

It is quite staggering the lengths McCann supporters will take in order to link the cases.

The ONLY one trying to link the cases is you Stephen.   

[stephen25000]

The ONLY one trying to link the cases is you Stephen.   

Cobblers.

You've spent too much time in the Twilight Zone.

[stephen25000]

Incredibly there are more important things!  And no - it took roughly five minutes to find those few references.

Many other countries have a poor record too - but the fact that it may be or have been common practice does not make it any more acceptable.  And that is on both a human rights level and also on a law enforcement level. 

It may be thought that beating a suspect up until they confess is an effective way of solving crimes (and comments on this forum seem to suggest that many hold this view) but there are clear flaws in it as a method - not least of which is that it does not lead to the right people being convicted and locked up.

Stephen - I think by now i "get" that you hate, detest, loath and despise the McCanns but you do seem to be seeing everything through that same lens - even to the point of denying the principle that police brutality and torture is totally unacceptable in a civilised society.   

Its very sad.

The only clear thing that is sad, is that again  you accuse me of supporting torture.

Now that is libellous.

I have said repeatedly I do not condone torture.

Now either cite otherwise, or you and any others doing the same apologize and withdraw that allegation.

[Mr Gray]

The only clear thing that is sad, is that again  you accuse me of supporting torture.

Now that is libellous.

I have said repeatedly I do not condone torture.

Now either cite otherwise, or you and any others doing the same apologize and withdraw that allegation.

the word condone includes...making allowances for something...you have made allowance for the torture...you have not condemned it

[Jean-Pierre]

The only clear thing that is sad, is that again  you accuse me of supporting torture.

Now that is libellous.

I have said repeatedly I do not condone torture.

Now either cite otherwise, or you and any others doing the same apologize and withdraw that allegation.

You have hedged around the subject, Stephen. 

And I suggest you may need to do a bit more research into "libellous". 

[stephen25000]

You have hedged around the subject, Stephen. 

And I suggest you may need to do a bit more research into "libellous". 

When have I said I support or condone torture ?

Answers on a post card.

[Mr Gray]

When have I said I support or condone torture ?

Answers on a post card.

the word condone includes...making allowances for something...you have made allowance for the torture...you have not condemned it

[stephen25000]

Let's make a comparison then, if I am to be accused of condoning torture.


McCann backers support the mccanns who neglected their children, leading to the disappearance of one of them. So by the logic of JP , mccann supporters condone neglect.

[Jean-Pierre]

When have I said I support or condone torture ?

Answers on a post card.

I cannot see what is so difficult about an outright condemnation of police torture - you always like to hedge - as in the example below:

Never justified, yet you know it goes on, within the parameters of 'rendition' and in many countries around the world.

And then

I wonder whether you would say the same if a close friend of yours or a relative, could have been saved, or hundreds of peoples lives, say by rendition of a terrorist who under examination/torture revealed the details of a major terrorist operation before it was carried out.

I think we will have to agree to differ on this Stephen. 

[Mr Gray]

Let's make a comparison then, if I am to be accused of condoning torture.


McCann backers support the mccanns who neglected their children, leading to the disappearance of one of them. So by the logic of JP , mccann supporters condone neglect.

there was no neglect

[stephen25000]

I cannot see what is so difficult about an outright condemnation of police torture - you always like to hedge - as in the example below:

Never justified, yet you know it goes on, within the parameters of 'rendition' and in many countries around the world.

And then

I wonder whether you would say the same if a close friend of yours or a relative, could have been saved, or hundreds of peoples lives, say by rendition of a terrorist who under examination/torture revealed the details of a major terrorist operation before it was carried out.

I think we will have to agree to differ on this Stephen.

Where does it say I condone torture.

I merely played the devil's advocate,  in asking if you would support the torture of a terrorist suspect to save the lives of potential terrorist victims.

You said NO.

[Eleanor]

Where does it say I condone torture.

I merely played the devil's advocate,  in asking if you would support the torture of a terrorist suspect to save the lives of potential terrorist victims.

You said NO.

And so do I.

[Jean-Pierre]

Where does it say I condone torture.

I merely played the devil's advocate,  in asking if you would support the torture of a terrorist suspect to save the lives of potential terrorist victims.

You said NO.

Fair enough, Stephen. 

Now - the real crux of the thread - are you comfortable that Leonor Cipriano' s conviction is safe, given that it has been established in court that she was tortured by the PJ?   

 

[slartibartfast]

It was taken as proved by the court that Leonora was tortured.   http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html


"It was taken as proven that Leonor Cipriano was beaten by elements of the Judicial police who could not be identified, and she didn't fall on the stairs, as was suggested. However, the court failed to ascertain the perpetrators of the aggressions."

Does the fact that the PJ use torture as part of their professional lives ring any alarm bells with you?

And of course Joan's fate is of the primary concern.  I do not see how baning up the wrong person / people will help.  Maybe you can?

 

 

It was also taken as proven that Leanor and Joao, were guilty of Joana's murder.