Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?

[Myster]

If JB was responsible he would surely have worn gloves? 

If they do exist it might partly reveal the order of deaths too.

Depends what sort of gloves. I've heard talk of farm gloves, whatever those might be... thick leather, light cotton or somewhere in between. Even Marigolds. But loading without gloves is easier and quicker than with, so he probably took them off while doing so.

Loading a magazine bare-fingered, 9mm here but the same would go for .22s..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExsKY_5q8E&feature=youtu.be&t=2m42s

[Holly Goodhead]

This CERA LT machine complete is only around £27,250 (in the USA at least), so there should be a few in UK forensic labs and police forces. Testing looks so simple - eight images taken around the circumference of each casing and stitched together to make one.  Then compare with JBs and SCs original prints which EP should still have... job done!

Were any prints found on the casings using conventional powder dusting in '85/86?

It sounds so simple.  I hope it is capable of settling the case once and for all but I somehow doubt it.

I haven't seen any evidence EP attempted to obtain fingerprints from the casings.  I would have thought even if they could only obtain partials it would be enough to eliminate either JB or SC? 

This is what David said when I posed the question:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5913.msg214604#msg214604

[Holly Goodhead]

Depends what sort of gloves. I've heard talk of farm gloves, whatever those might be... thick leather, light cotton or somewhere in between. Even Marigolds. But loading without gloves is easier and quicker than with, so he probably took them off while doing so.

Loading a magazine bare-fingered, 9mm here but the same would go for .22s..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExsKY_5q8E&feature=youtu.be&t=2m42s

Yes might be quite fiddly with any gloves on but surely if JB is responsible he would concern himself about fingerprints on casings?

[Myster]

It sounds so simple.  I hope it is capable of settling the case once and for all but I somehow doubt it.

I haven't seen any evidence EP attempted to obtain fingerprints from the casings.  I would have thought even if they could only obtain partials it would be enough to eliminate either JB or SC? 

This is what David said when I posed the question:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5913.msg214604#msg214604

Partials are better than none at all, so incomplete thumb or finger prints on around 13 casings would show she had indeed handled them. Also it's highly unlikely that she was somehow encouraged touch so many by her brother.

[Myster]

Yes might be quite fiddly with any gloves on but surely if JB is responsible he would concern himself about fingerprints on casings?

It was a case of hurriedly loading them, so maybe thoughts of leaving fingerprints came second place.

You've tried loading an Anschutz magazine without gloves on, haven't you?  Imagine how much more difficult it would be gloved when under pressure.

[puglove]

Depends what sort of gloves. I've heard talk of farm gloves, whatever those might be... thick leather, light cotton or somewhere in between. Even Marigolds. But loading without gloves is easier and quicker than with, so he probably took them off while doing so.

Loading a magazine bare-fingered, 9mm here but the same would go for .22s..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExsKY_5q8E&feature=youtu.be&t=2m42s

Farmyards, stables, workshops, body shops, garages....you'll always find a box of latex gloves.

[Holly Goodhead]

Farmyards, stables, workshops, body shops, garages....you'll always find a box of latex gloves.

I use these for cleaning etc and they hardly ever tear.  Brilliant.

https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Disposable-Nitrile-Gloves-One-Size-Waitrose/279120011?ULP_CAMPAIGN_ID=3&gclid=CMC818OZl8oCFcE_GwodbOMFWg&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CISO5MOZl8oCFVUoFgodAHMHEg

[Holly Goodhead]

It was a case of hurriedly loading them, so maybe thoughts of leaving fingerprints came second place.

You've tried loading an Anschutz magazine without gloves on, haven't you?  Imagine how much more difficult it would be gloved when under pressure.

I don't think thin gloves would present any particular difficulty.  Perhaps more difficult with thicker gloves.  I didn't think it was too fiddly.  There's no aligning or anything just a bit of force to push it in!  I can see any sort of gloves would present more of a problem removing the bullets from the box/case but JB claims he tipped them out on the worktop!

Prior to visiting the gunshop I wrongly assumed the bullets were loose in a cadboard box akin to a box of drawing pins or paperclips.  I can see for a man ie larger hands/fingers and shorter nails removing the bullets from the box would be quite fiddly so I can see why JB claims he tipped the bullets out.

For those who dont know what the box/case looks like:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6931.msg297876#msg297876

[Holly Goodhead]

If the casings have been destroyed I'm wondering if the court would order a re-trial? 

[Myster]

If the casings have been destroyed I'm wondering if the court would order a re-trial? 

Doubt it, but can a prisoner or someone on his behalf sue for wrongful disposal of evidence?

[Holly Goodhead]

Doubt it, but can a prisoner or someone on his behalf sue for wrongful disposal of evidence?

Hmmm...but suing is for redress and how would you quantify the redress? 

I think it is the prosecutions responsibility to maintain indefinitely all exhibits used at trial.  Which makes sense as if the defence raises an appeal the prosecution need to defend their position.  The court certainly seemed to take a dim view that exhibits had been destroyed at his last appeal and stated they would find in his favour so as not to disadvantage him.  Would you want to see the court rule in his favour over the casings?  I wouldn't, even though I think in all probability he's innocent.  I can't see the court saying 'oh well silly old EP destroyed the casings so we'll find in JB's favour ie assume SC's fingerprints were on the casings'.  So what's the alternative?  A re-trial seems the only option.  Or a root and branch investigation by a judge? 

Here's what the CoA said at JB's 2002 hearing re destroyed exhibits:

164. There then followed a lengthy period of correspondence but no further representations were made. The CCRC in its reference (at paragraph 5.4) records:

"However it is clear from the correspondence that the case was still live and awaiting further representations at least at the end of 1995."

165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.

[scipio_usmc]

It sounds so simple.  I hope it is capable of settling the case once and for all but I somehow doubt it.

I haven't seen any evidence EP attempted to obtain fingerprints from the casings.  I would have thought even if they could only obtain partials it would be enough to eliminate either JB or SC? 

This is what David said when I posed the question:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5913.msg214604#msg214604

Cook superglue fumed the casings in an attempt to locate latent prints since no visible prints could be located . Thus they did in fact make the attempt though no latent prints were revealed either. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Cook superglue fumed the casings in an attempt to locate latent prints since no visible prints could be located . Thus they did in fact make the attempt though no latent prints were revealed either.

But as you said it's "relatively uncommon to find fingerprints on bullet casings" using conventional methods.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5913.msg214729#msg214729

And this is where CERA LT can help.  When you say "superglue fumed" I assume you mean cyanoacrylate fuming?  The good news is that cyanoacrylate fuming still enables CERA LT to recover fingerprints.

I had a flick through CAL's book and she makes no reference to the casings and fingerprinting.  She does however make reference to RB and DB saying the only way they would believe SC responsible would be finding her fingerprints on the bullets. 

[Holly Goodhead]

As far as I can see the law states the prosecution must retain trial exhibits indefinitely.  The casings were referred to at trial by way of crime scene photos so I assume are considered exhibits?  This being the case if they've been destroyed I think the prosecution are on a hiding to nothing.

[Myster]

The Anschutz and magazine probably exist, (was the original, or a similar one used in the US tests?), so maybe the casings do as well... on display, polished up like new in EP's "Black Museum". ; - )

The CERA device could also be used on the moderator, but more likely to find every other Bob, Dave and Stan's fingerprints on it as well.

Apparently, cyanoacrylate fuming doesn't affect underlying corrosion, so there could be a better chance of lifting readable prints with the CERA.  If it works successfully, this discovery/invention is up there with DNA "fingerprinting" in advancing crime detection.

The CA fuming method, just for info...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkdlRN0jU7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0e8WXkFA64