An interesting academic question

[scipio_usmc]

While it doesn't amount to a hill of beans what shotgun did police take and fingerprint and why?

By rights police should have taken all firearms and ammunition but didn't.  Most of the shotguns were left for the family to find and collect.  They fingerprinted a shotgun the same time they fingerprinted the Anschutz.  Which shotgun did they take and why did they select just that shotgun?

Did they incorrectly call the air rifle a shotgun or did they actually take a shotgun?  I have not seen any evidence regarding the family finding the air rifle yet they do speak about shotguns that the police broke open and that were still disassembled in bags. 

These questions have no bearing on the murder case at all they just are for the sake of curiousity.

 

[Myster]

While it doesn't amount to a hill of beans what shotgun did police take and fingerprint and why?

By rights police should have taken all firearms and ammunition but didn't.  Most of the shotguns were left for the family to find and collect.  They fingerprinted a shotgun the same time they fingerprinted the Anschutz.  Which shotgun did they take and why did they select just that shotgun?

Did they incorrectly call the air rifle a shotgun or did they actually take a shotgun?  I have not seen any evidence regarding the family finding the air rifle yet they do speak about shotguns that the police broke open and that were still disassembled in bags. 

These questions have no bearing on the murder case at all they just are for the sake of curiousity.

 

Was it this broken open one leaning against the gun cupboard?  If you enlarge the CS pic you'll probably be able to recognise it from the listed firearms.  I think there was also a disassembled shotgun? in the upstairs office.

[Myster]

I think there was also a disassembled shotgun? in the upstairs office.

In the den cupboard, Collins found a double barrelled shotgun and boxes of ammunition. Returning to the scullery, he unbolted the door at the far end onto a small, untidy porch. Re-bolting it, he climbed the wooden stairs behind Woodcock and Delgado. A door at the top led into the office where Woodcock discovered ‘an old, rusty shotgun in pieces’ among the ‘papers, books and other general rubbish’.
 
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm (p. 173). Pan Macmillan.

[scipio_usmc]

Was it this broken open one leaning against the gun cupboard?  If you enlarge the CS pic you'll probably be able to recognise it from the listed firearms.  I think there was also a disassembled shotgun? in the upstairs office.

That's the one Montgomery and Woodcock noted they took from the closet and left out.  I am fairly sure the relatives mentioned finding it and wondering why it was left out in such manner. Thus it would not be the one that was taken.

As for the rusty disassembled one found upstairs what would be the point of taking that?

 

[Holly Goodhead]

P239 of CAL'S book makes ref to DI Cook collecting the Anshutz, silencer, magazine, cartridges and two shotguns from the SoC store on the third floor of Chelmsford Police HQ and drove to the Home Office Central research Establishment at Sandridge.  This was on Thu 15th Aug.  Purpose of visit to Sandridge was to obtain fingerprints.

Where she refers to cartridges I assume she means the casings?

[Holly Goodhead]

I have come across some exhibits with the initials DJS but I'm unable to identify the person?  Anyone know?

[scipio_usmc]

P239 of CAL'S book makes ref to DI Cook collecting the Anshutz, silencer, magazine, cartridges and two shotguns from the SoC store on the third floor of Chelmsford Police HQ and drove to the Home Office Central research Establishment at Sandridge.  This was on Thu 15th Aug.  Purpose of visit to Sandridge was to obtain fingerprints.

Where she refers to cartridges I assume she means the casings?

Yes she screwed up.  They are officially called cartridge cases or casings. A cartridge is a complete unfired case with the powder and projectile intact. They super glue fumed the cases as well as weapons and magazine.

That would mean they collected 2 shotguns which is even more curious given the family talked about taking  shotguns to Oak Farm.  Which 2 did they take and why only those 2 and were they calling the air rifle a shotgun?  What happened to that otherwise?

Since the shotguns wound up having no relevance the police didn't ever discuss them in any statements or the trial testimony.  So basically we are left wondering...

[Myster]

According to Wilkes, the Eatons took all the weaponry they found on the Saturday back home, which included:

A Webley & Scott hammerless and ejector 12-bore shotgun - from the gun cupboard.

A BSA Meteor .22 air-gun - from under some old clothes on the S2 kitchen stairs.

A Webley & Scott single bolt-action .410 shotgun - from under some old clothes on the S2 kitchen stairs.

A Greener double-barreled ejector 12-bore shotgun (Anthony Pargeter's) - from the Shower Room.

An older hammer double-barreled 12-bore shotgun (Anthony Pargeter's) - from the Shower Room.

So it seems the shotgun(s) were collected by the police from Oak Farm, rather than being seized directly from WHF.

[scipio_usmc]

According to Wilkes, the Eatons took all the weaponry they found on the Saturday back home, which included:

A Webley & Scott hammerless and ejector 12-bore shotgun - from the gun cupboard.

A BSA Meteor .22 air-gun - from under some old clothes on the S2 kitchen stairs.

A Webley & Scott single bolt-action .410 shotgun - from under some old clothes on the S2 kitchen stairs.

A Greener double-barreled ejector 12-bore shotgun (Anthony Pargeter's) - from the Shower Room.

An older hammer double-barreled 12-bore shotgun (Anthony Pargeter's) - from the Shower Room.

So it seems the shotgun(s) were collected by the police from Oak Farm, rather than being seized directly from WHF.

If any of the above weapons were the ones fingerprinted then that is obviously the case.  But maybe there were 2 additional shotguns that the police took and left the rest for the family to find.

Ann talked about taking the shotguns and where they were stored but never detailed if and when they were ever turned over to police. That would be really interesting if Peter gave the weapons to Jones the same time he gave him the moderator. The Webleys were the only ones assembled the ones in the bathroom were in pieces.  I don't know why they would bother printing the Webleys but the ones taken apart obviously would have even less value so that would explain why they were not if in fact the Webleys collected by the family were the ones printed.

[Holly Goodhead]

CAL's book states the same as Wilkes.  P223 and P224.  The Webley and Scott 12 bore shotgun was found in a brown case according to DB/CAL. 

Very lax on the part of EP to leave the firearms when the property was insecure as a result of the TFU breaking the door down.

Can I see the air rifle and .410 shotgun in this photo?  Against the left skirting board looking up.  Or am I seeing things? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg20490#msg20490

[Myster]

CAL's book states the same as Wilkes.  P223 and P224.  The Webley and Scott 12 bore shotgun was found in a brown case according to DB/CAL. 

Very lax on the part of EP to leave the firearms when the property was insecure as a result of the TFU breaking the door down.

Can I see the air rifle and .410 shotgun in this photo?  Against the left skirting board looking up.  Or am I seeing things? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg20490#msg20490

You're always seeing things!  More likely that those two weapons were hidden underneath the light blue and grey fabric/towels you can partially see on the lower steps.

Notice there are two tins of Brasso with red tops half-way up... you know, the ones the police had stored away for 30 years until they came in useful recently for removing corrosion from the casings!

Right... time to go and keep my hot friend Fashy company.

[Holly Goodhead]

You're always seeing things!  More likely that those two weapons were hidden underneath the light blue and grey fabric/towels you can partially see on the lower steps.

Notice there are two tins of Brasso with red tops half-way up... you know, the ones the police had stored away for 30 years until they came in useful recently for removing corrosion from the casings!

Right... time to go and keep my hot friend Fashy company.

I must have been seeing things again...I could of sworn initially I saw fleshlight in there  &%+((£

I'm going to email Dr Bond and see if he thinks there's any mileage in forensic testing of the rifle and silencer (according to Trudi the only two exhibits that have survived).  If the new technology reveals corrosion from fingerprints on metals I don't see why it would be restricted to cylindrical objects. 

[scipio_usmc]

CAL's book states the same as Wilkes.  P223 and P224.  The Webley and Scott 12 bore shotgun was found in a brown case according to DB/CAL. 

Very lax on the part of EP to leave the firearms when the property was insecure as a result of the TFU breaking the door down.

Can I see the air rifle and .410 shotgun in this photo?  Against the left skirting board looking up.  Or am I seeing things? 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg20490#msg20490

They did not know for sure the murder weapon was the Anschutz until the lab confirmed it in September.  For that reason alone they should have seized every firearm at the place. 

But you would think that since firearms and even ammunition are controlled items not allowed to be possessed without license and since the license holder was dead that police would take such items until someone with a license could claim them.  Anyone can buy ammo and keep it in the US but in the UK it is regulated.

The crime scene officers didn't think of that at all and apparently didn't do that sort of thing as a matter of routine in any case where they encountered firearms.  They act as if it was not regulated items. That surprised me given the anti-gun attitudes I encounter usually with people in the UK and many other countries compared to the US attitude.

The laziness of their search is bad for Jeremy though. His advocates would like to paint the picture of police bent on blaming him but the evidence supports the police believed his claims and the staging so much that they did a less thorough job than the crime scene officers should have.  It goes directly against the narrative they would like to present.

[Holly Goodhead]

While it doesn't amount to a hill of beans what shotgun did police take and fingerprint and why?

By rights police should have taken all firearms and ammunition but didn't.  Most of the shotguns were left for the family to find and collect.  They fingerprinted a shotgun the same time they fingerprinted the Anschutz.  Which shotgun did they take and why did they select just that shotgun?

Did they incorrectly call the air rifle a shotgun or did they actually take a shotgun?  I have not seen any evidence regarding the family finding the air rifle yet they do speak about shotguns that the police broke open and that were still disassembled in bags. 

These questions have no bearing on the murder case at all they just are for the sake of curiousity.

I also from the raid team statements that those that entered the unused staircase observed the bandolier and ammunition but failed to observe, or note, the firearms?

[scipio_usmc]

I also from the raid team statements that those that entered the unused staircase observed the bandolier and ammunition but failed to observe, or note, the firearms?

The guns were hidden underneath clothing or fabric.  The bandolier was hanging up eye level. They saw all the crap on the stairs and realized no one had used that staircase in a while, they didn't search it. Their job was to clear the house simply.