Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb

[Benice]

I wouldn't describe someone wearing a bath towel as half naked.  Far from it.    Dr Payne  wasn't a stranger - he and Fiona were best friends of the McCanns and he had probably seen far more of Kate's body on the beach and in the pool in the past.       If they'd stayed in one another's homes -  he may have even have seen her in a bath towel before.  She might have seen him in a bath towel before?    Who knows? 

He'd been a doctor for years and would be quite used to the human form - not some teenage lad who could get excited by the mere idea of the female body and so it would burn into his memory.

Too petty for words IMO.

As a comedian once informed his audience     ... '' I'm going to let you into a secret.    Underneath these clothes you see me wearing ........ I am stark naked''

Aren't we all?  :-)

[Benice]

Hmmm, well, according to David James Smith in the Times in December 2007, Gerry's Achilles tendon was playing up so badly that he had to stop playing there and then.

If Gerry was on the tennis courts around 4/4.30pm, he was presumably in his tennis gear, and had his racket with him. But there's no mention of him turning up in his tennis shorts at 4.45pm when, allegedly, he began to have tea with Maddie and Cat Baker (the cook says 4.30pm).

Cat Baker never remembers Kate arriving at the Tapas restaurant  in all her running gear - except that by the time we get to her rogatory on 18 April 2008, she 'thinks' Kate 'might have' been wearing some sort of sports gear (sorry, can't find the exact quote at the moment).

As for Gerry's Achilles tendon being so bad at 4pm that he couldn't carry on playing tennis, how comes he was able to take part in a vigorous 'social tennis' match between 6pm and 7pm?...

...when, supposedly, he asked David Payne to go and see his wife to 'see if she was all right'/'see if she was coming down with the kids to watch the tennis'/'to see if she needed any help' or maybe for some other reason.       

There are some on the forum who think these multiple and stark contradictions don't matter at all - and can be waved away by saying things like: 'There are always inconsistences when people to try and remember an incident' or 'It's hard for people to remember what happened' or 'They muddled up the dates' etc.

Well, they can't be waved away       

Your claim regarding the extent of Gerry's achilles tendon injury is pure speculation.

Quote

Gerry had knocked up at the start of the 4.30pm tennis-drills session, but had decided not to exacerbate an injury to his Achilles tendon, so had dropped out and waited around by the courts until the children came back from the kids’ clubs at 5pm for tea. That had been one of the most enjoyable times of the holiday, all the children together for tea, then the adults playing with them afterwards.
Unquote

No mention of it being so bad that he couldn't carry on playing as you claim - but every indication that because he wanted to be sure it was OK to play in the later tennis matches - he decided to give it a precautionary rest.   That is what he did - and that is why he was able to play later on.   Nothing odd about that whatsoever IMO.

[G-Unit]

I wouldn't describe someone wearing a bath towel as half naked.  Far from it.    Dr Payne  wasn't a stranger - he and Fiona were best friends of the McCanns and he had probably seen far more of Kate's body on the beach and in the pool in the past.       If they'd stayed in one another's homes -  he may have even have seen her in a bath towel before.  She might have seen him in a bath towel before?    Who knows? 

He'd been a doctor for years and would be quite used to the human form - not some teenage lad who could get excited by the mere idea of the female body and so it would burn into his memory.

Too petty for words IMO.

As a comedian once informed his audience     ... '' I'm going to let you into a secret.    Underneath these clothes you see me wearing ........ I am stark naked''

Aren't we all?  :-)

All speculation.

[xtina]

there are some bite sized viewing ...for anyone who don't want to trail through the full films ....and bear in mind what R H is trying to do ....show the alternative to abduction ....and as yet no one has stopped him


the evidence presented is all from the official Portuguese police filese (and of course the many conflicts with what the press have reported is evident from the examples of the media articles shown). Any conclusions drawn, after becoming familiar with the facts (as opposed to what appears in the mainstream media), are down to the viewer. In my experience everyone who improves their knowledge of the case by becoming aware of the facts comes to the conclusion that the parents know what happened to their daughter and there remains in place a cover up.

The point, therefore, is that the content of this documentary draws upon facts and it's for the viewer to draw their own conclusions as to which may or may not be relevant to help bring those that caused harm to Madeleine, and progressed any subsequent cover up, are bought to justice.

Note: the author of the documentary actively requests that any errors in presenting the facts are bought to his attention. Speculation is irrelevant... This documentary is about pulling together and presenting facts that can fully and independently corroborated if one so wishes.

[Lace]

there are some bite sized viewing ...for anyone who don't want to trail through the full films ....and bear in mind what R H is trying to do ....show the alternative to abduction ....and as yet no one has stopped him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oo2-Sj7to


the evidence presented is all from the official Portuguese police filese (and of course the many conflicts with what the press have reported is evident from the examples of the media articles shown). Any conclusions drawn, after becoming familiar with the facts (as opposed to what appears in the mainstream media), are down to the viewer. In my experience everyone who improves their knowledge of the case by becoming aware of the facts comes to the conclusion that the parents know what happened to their daughter and there remains in place a cover up.

The point, therefore, is that the content of this documentary draws upon facts and it's for the viewer to draw their own conclusions as to which may or may not be relevant to help bring those that caused harm to Madeleine, and progressed any subsequent cover up, are bought to justice.

Note: the author of the documentary actively requests that any errors in presenting the facts are bought to his attention. Speculation is irrelevant... This documentary is about pulling together and presenting facts that can fully and independently corroborated if one so wishes.

If one is going to make a video and also tour giving lecturers,  you would expect the FACTS to have been investigated fully and not for there to be any ERRORS presenting such FACTS.

[pathfinder73]

I find your constant reference to apparel and towels puzzling.  In what way does it add anything to the debate apart from innuendo?

It does when she doesn't know what time she took a shower. It was a different time on 4 May 2007. If I go for a run and get back to the house I would get a shower straight away being sweaty before my partner left again at 6pm. Who was looking after the kids when she was in the shower at 6:30?

[G-Unit]

Your claim regarding the extent of Gerry's achilles tendon injury is pure speculation.

Quote

Gerry had knocked up at the start of the 4.30pm tennis-drills session, but had decided not to exacerbate an injury to his Achilles tendon, so had dropped out and waited around by the courts until the children came back from the kids’ clubs at 5pm for tea. That had been one of the most enjoyable times of the holiday, all the children together for tea, then the adults playing with them afterwards.
Unquote

No mention of it being so bad that he couldn't carry on playing as you claim - but every indication that because he wanted to be sure it was OK to play in the later tennis matches - he decided to give it a precautionary rest.   That is what he did - and that is why he was able to play later on.   Nothing odd about that whatsoever IMO.

There's only one mention of Gerry hurting himself in the witness statements and it didn't happen on 3rd. Kate says he played another guest after 4.30pm and she went running. Cat the nanny didn't see him and assumed he was playing tennis. Apart from a journalist's article there are no indications that Gerry's tendon was bothering him on 3rd May.

[Lace]

@ Lace

I'm glad of an opportunity to re-visit the flaming contradictions between the accounts of, respectively, Dr David Payne and Dr Kate McCann, about an alleged visit claimed to have been made by the former to the latter at about 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May.

Actually, she styled herself Dr Kate Healy at that moment in time. But the next day, after she had reported Madeleine missing, she began to style herself Dr Kate McCann. And now 'Mrs McCann'.

It's interesting that there is no real attempt by McCann-supporters on here to counteract the many blatant contradictions between the two rival accounts of that alleged visit. IIRC Richard Hall enumerated as many as 20 in his first Madeleine McCann film, some more obviously irreconcilable differences than others.

Instead, you've highlighted my claim in an earlier post that Payne 'sat down' on his visit. You are right, he didn't. I mis-remembered that bit. He gave such a detailed account of what he saw and thought about on that visit that I had thought he must have sat down.

But he didn't. If he was ever there at that time, that is.

Looking again at this alleged visit of Dr Payne to G5A, I've had a look again at three relevant statements:

Dr Payne, Rogatory interview

So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back.

Kate McCann, 1st Statement, Friday May 4th, 2007

After this time, they take the children to the "Kids Club" until around 5/5.30pm, the time when the children eat in a bar under the watchful gaze of the parents. After the 5pm dinner, they give the children a bath, prepare them for the night and let them play for a while in a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children are put to bed until the following morning when the described routines start all over again. While the children are at the "Kids Club," the interviewee played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read or went "jogging."

Kate McCann, Thursday May 3rd 2007

Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went to bed at around 7.30. While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't actually enter the flat, he remained at the veranda door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.

After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children..

++++++++++++++++

In these statements, we notice these features:

1. That when first asked to give an account of the events of the evening of 3 May, Kate does not mention any visiit by Dr Payne.

2. I have not included Dr Payne's first interview. Neither does he mention this mythical visit to the McCanns' apartment.

3. When Kate McCann is interviewed on 6 September, this alleged visit is now mentioned for the first time.

4. I am unsure if any witness raised this visit any time before September.

5. Neither of the McCanns, nor Dr Fiona Payne, nor anyone else mentions this visit and the alleged reason for it. It is not mentioned on the McCann group's official neatly typewritten account of the evening's events, handed n on 10 May, which only begins at 8.30pm. 

6. When David Payne, after being given a year to think about what to say in his Rogatory interview, gives his rambling statement, he is unable to give many details about what he saw and did - for example, he doesn't say what the children were doing when he saw them, he doesn't mention the fairly remarkable fact that Kate McCann was dressed only in a towel, and so on. But he is crystal clear on one point. He entered the apartment. Kate McCann is equally clear in her account of the incident: he did NOT enter the apartment. These two accounts cannot be reconciled. And that's only one of up to 20 contradictions.   

7. The above SIX points, and the TWENTY contradictions between the two of them when they get round to talking about this alleged visit, are entirely consistent with a hypothesis that this alleged visit was invented, perhaps in an attempt to 'prove' that Madeleine had been seen alive by a third party earlier that evening, or perhaps for another reason.

Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies,    it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?

Why should he remember what the children were doing?   he remembers they were dressed for bed.    He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment,   Kate says he didn't enter,  so maybe 'entering'  as such would be to walk into the room,    this is petty.

Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews,   it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing,   it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.

All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.   

[G-Unit]

Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies,    it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?

Why should he remember what the children were doing?   he remembers they were dressed for bed.    He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment,   Kate says he didn't enter,  so maybe 'entering'  as such would be to walk into the room,    this is petty.

Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews,   it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing,   it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.

All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.   

The inconsistencies are facts, whatever your opinion of why they arose or whether they are significant. There is no factual basis whatsoever for the abduction theory, but some people will happily speculate for hours about the who, what, why and when of it.

[Benice]

Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies,    it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?

Why should he remember what the children were doing?   he remembers they were dressed for bed.    He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment,   Kate says he didn't enter,  so maybe 'entering'  as such would be to walk into the room,    this is petty.

Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews,   it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing,   it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.

All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.   

If the whole episode was fabricated by the McCanns and Dr. Payne, then wouldn't you expect them to at least decide on what they were going to tell the police about whether he entered 5A or not - and the exact time he spent there? 

IMO it would have easier for both to say he walked in and sat down - where he observed Kate with the 3 children eating snacks - and he stayed for around 4/5 mins.    But it seems they hadn't even got the intelligence to sort those simple points out between them.     

But there again - what do you expect from people who -  having decided to claim they found the windows/shutters open -( as evidence of  the existence of an intruder to the police ) - they then went and closed the shutters/windows BEFORE the police arrived - and didn't even have the brains to get one or more of their friends to say THEY had also seen the open shutters/windows.

Either they were all so thick they practically bordered on feebleminded - or their accounts are their own truthful recollections of what happened - which fortunately (unlike some sceptics)  - professional policemen do not expect to be carbon copies of other people's accounts of the same situation.   


 

[xtina]

Yes I did highlight your claim that David Payne sat down as you are so hell bent on inconsistencies,    it shows how easily inconsistencies can arise doesn't it?

Why should he remember what the children were doing?   he remembers they were dressed for bed.    He says he just entered a few steps into the apartment,   Kate says he didn't enter,  so maybe 'entering'  as such would be to walk into the room,    this is petty.

Why would Kate or Gerry mention the visit in their first interviews,   it wasn't relevant to Madeleine going missing,   it was only later when Amaral came up with his theory that the McCann's hid Madeleine's body that the visit would have been relevant as David Payne other than Kate and Gerry would have been the last to have seen Madeleine.

All these inconsistencies are just silly nit picking.   

no i think he remembers a bit more ...than they were just ready for bed....why does he go into so much detail....about ......how happy they all were ...looking like angels ...etc etc...it is as if he was expectig something was wrong ....

i wouldn't say the inconsistencies was nit picking either ....especially as ....

An interesting detail, which is revealed in these documents: all the English people, before and after the questioning, were given not only a copy of their preceding statements, but also a copy of the statements that had been made by the other members of the group.








had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little,

[G-Unit]

If the whole episode was fabricated by the McCanns and Dr. Payne, then wouldn't you expect them to at least decide on what they were going to tell the police about whether he entered 5A or not - and the exact time he spent there? 

IMO it would have easier for both to say he walked in and sat down - where he observed Kate with the 3 children eating snacks - and he stayed for around 4/5 mins.    But it seems they hadn't even got the intelligence to sort those simple points out between them.     

But there again - what do you expect from people who -  having decided to claim they found the windows/shutters open -( as evidence of  the existence of an intruder to the police ) - they then went and closed the shutters/windows BEFORE the police arrived - and didn't even have the brains to get one or more of their friends to say THEY had also seen the open shutters/windows.

Either they were all so thick they practically bordered on feebleminded - or their accounts are their own truthful recollections of what happened - which fortunately (unlike some sceptics)  - professional policemen do not expect to be carbon copies of other people's accounts of the same situation.   

The first time this visit is mentioned is by Gerry McCann on 10th May. He also mentions another visit which has been completely denied by all the rest of the group, who all agreed that David Payne never checked his own children let alone anyone else's;

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that DP also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.

[blonk]

I wouldn't describe someone wearing a bath towel as half naked. Far from it.  Dr Payne  wasn't a stranger - he and Fiona were best friends of the McCanns and he had probably seen far more of Kate's body on the beach and in the pool in the past...     

Too petty for words IMO.

Kate McCann has absolutely insisted that she was having a shower at about 6.30pm when Dr David Payne knocked at the door. It is certainly unusual for a mother to take a shower while three infants under 4 have the run of an apartment. Kate wants us to accept the 6.30pm shower as FACT.

If it is, then WHY did she take a second shower at about 7.30pm? It's referred to in later statements, and in his 'fullest and most truthful account yet' of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, David James Smith (Times, 16 Dec 2007) wrote:

QUOTE

“Gerry was in his apartment – Apartment 5a on the ground floor of Block 5 of the Waterside Village Gardens at the Ocean Club – at 7pm. He had a glass of water, then a beer, while the children sat with Kate on the couch having stories with a snack. The children were clearly shattered – the last thing any of them needed was a sedative and, anyway, it was not something the McCanns ever did. They put them to bed after a last story. The twins were asleep virtually the moment they lay down, Madeleine not far behind them. The three children were asleep in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and, beyond it, the street. Madeleine was in the single bed nearest the door. There was an empty bed against the opposite wall, beneath the window. Between the two beds were two travel cots containing the twins: Sean and Amelie.

These days it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars. At about 7.30pm, Kate and Gerry showered and changed and sat down just after 8pm to have a quiet glass of the Montana sauvignon blanc that Gerry had bought at the Baptista supermarket...

Did Kate really have a shower at 6.30pm and then another one at 7.30pm?

Or is that another question that is 'too petty for words', Benice?

[Lace]

Kate McCann has absolutely insisted that she was having a shower at about 6.30pm when Dr David Payne knocked at the door. It is certainly unusual for a mother to take a shower while three infants under 4 have the run of an apartment. Kate wants us to accept the 6.30pm shower as FACT.

If it is, then WHY did she take a second shower at about 7.30pm? It's referred to in later statements, and in his 'fullest and most truthful account yet' of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, David James Smith (Times, 16 Dec 2007) wrote:

QUOTE

“Gerry was in his apartment – Apartment 5a on the ground floor of Block 5 of the Waterside Village Gardens at the Ocean Club – at 7pm. He had a glass of water, then a beer, while the children sat with Kate on the couch having stories with a snack. The children were clearly shattered – the last thing any of them needed was a sedative and, anyway, it was not something the McCanns ever did. They put them to bed after a last story. The twins were asleep virtually the moment they lay down, Madeleine not far behind them. The three children were asleep in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and, beyond it, the street. Madeleine was in the single bed nearest the door. There was an empty bed against the opposite wall, beneath the window. Between the two beds were two travel cots containing the twins: Sean and Amelie.

These days it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars. At about 7.30pm, Kate and Gerry showered and changed and sat down just after 8pm to have a quiet glass of the Montana sauvignon blanc that Gerry had bought at the Baptista supermarket...

Did Kate really have a shower at 6.30pm and then another one at 7.30pm?

Or is that another question that is 'too petty for words', Benice?

It is definitely too petty for words.

In one of the statements I believe Kate's it is stated that they both had a bath.

In one of Gerry's he says he had a bath and he believed Kate had already done so.

So which is it?   They both had showers?    They both had baths?  or did Gerry just have a bath as Kate had already had a shower?

It's the translation for goodness sake.

[G-Unit]

It is definitely too petty for words.

In one of the statements I believe Kate's it is stated that they both had a bath.

In one of Gerry's he says he had a bath and he believed Kate had already done so.

So which is it?   They both had showers?    They both had baths?  or did Gerry just have a bath as Kate had already had a shower?

It's the translation for goodness sake.

The translation, the excuse for everything.