Author Topic: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake  (Read 50662 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2016, 09:53:19 PM »
The translations were because you keep trying to distort.

The only "damage" to the AK enzymes were if the plates were additionally overdeveloped, it caused double banding but that double banding still allowed them to assess whether it was AK1 or AK2-1 and did not provide a means to confuse the 2.

Your hope that it is impossible to ever get results when superglue fuming is done have already been proven wrong by past studies and the testing being done now has no chance in hell of proving it is impossible to ever get results.  Nothing short of proving it is impossible to get results after superglue fuming would have any legal significance.  So from a legal standpoint there is no reason to even pay attention to the testing supposedly being done.

That is not what the article states at all.  You appear to have no understanding of gel electrophoresis and therefore fail to see the significance with the bands.

The first article states the results for the enzyme EAP were "fuzzy":

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7083.0;attach=6141

The second article states for EAP: "interpretation of the the plate became difficult if not impossible and enough of the enzymes were affected to significantly exclude many of the routine enzymatic examinations used by forensic laboratories.  And for AK "Adenylate Kinase was the only enzyme that showed effects of chemical modification resulting in banding with altered mobility.  Cyanoacrylate exposure by either method produced significant double banding in AK2-1 and AK1, this band became prominent only when the plates were intentionally overlapped."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7083.0;attach=6143

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7083.0;attach=6145

If the tests John Hayward carried out produced these sorts of results Dr Lincoln would have known about it.  They would be written off and never see the inside of court.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2016, 10:19:36 PM »
None of the smears dried into a single flake. It was blood stuck to the side of wood. It was small amounts because the spatter was small and the killer was still using the weapon thus some of the blood would have wiped off onto the killer. Blood that was undisturbed pooled inside the moderator forming into a flake. The whole flake was in 1 whole part.  Swabbing blood stuck to something with a swab to get a tiny amount results in less to test. The blood on the baffles that was swabbed was thus also insufficient to get results beyond knowing it was human.  Right inside the opening defense Lincoln found enough blood to tests and determine it was Sheila's, the blood on the baffles he detected was too little.  Part of the reason why he was not used was because he found such blood and would simply confirm the findings of the lab.

The single flake measuring a 1/4 of an inch (6.25mm) was separated into five parts for each test.  I'm sure the "smears" and "splashes" on the rifle were of a similar size to the separated parts of the flake circa 1.25mm.  Do you have any visuals for the blood on the rifle?

The blood on the rifle was not restricted to the wooden stock.

71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

The only blood in or on the silencer attributed to SC was the flake.  The only other blood that was capable of grouping was blood on the upper baffles which produced results for A and EAP BA.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2016, 10:35:33 PM »
Maybe they never did the transfer upon learning that the Home Office still considered the appeal open. A document saying they planned to do something is different than one that confirms transport and receipt.

If the transfer did occur it was for a very short period of time because certainly after it was discovered the appeal was still active they would have obtained the items from the museum to put back in storage.  Since the museum says they don't have it now going there to hope to see it would obviously be futile. 


Its possible that it was on display for a short period but caused too much controversy maybe? so they put it away.

Were do you think the Silencer and Rifle would be today? if you had to guess

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2016, 12:18:31 PM »
Its possible that it was on display for a short period but caused too much controversy maybe? so they put it away.

Were do you think the Silencer and Rifle would be today? if you had to guess

Controversy?  &%+((£

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2016, 03:46:08 PM »
The single flake measuring a 1/4 of an inch (6.25mm) was separated into five parts for each test.  I'm sure the "smears" and "splashes" on the rifle were of a similar size to the separated parts of the flake circa 1.25mm.  Do you have any visuals for the blood on the rifle?

The blood on the rifle was not restricted to the wooden stock.

71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

The only blood in or on the silencer attributed to SC was the flake.  The only other blood that was capable of grouping was blood on the upper baffles which produced results for A and EAP BA.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

The blood stains on the metal portion of the rifle were even smaller than the stains on the stock. Nevill's arms and skull provided minimal levels of blood to hit the weapon. Potentially his jaw could deposit more blood but it still would still be back spatter and not necessarily that big. We don't know precisely how much blood was flowing outside of his jaw/lip versus inside. We also don't know if he got hit in the jaw.  We know he was punched or stuck in the nose/eye region but it is unclear whether damage to his jaw was done by the bullets alone or being hit.

Aside from the fact that spatter is not very big, larger bits of spatter travel less far. So only the smallest spatter could travel to the metal parts of the weapon.  The larger spatter would not travel as far so only hit the stock and killer. Larger doesn't mean large though the terms are relative. As I already mentioned the killer was touching the stock both during the bludgeoning and after to fire the weapon so the blood was disturbed. It did not instantly dry.

Enough blood remained right inside the opening for Lincoln to test it and determine it was group A.  Since it was not a large amount he didn't do an AK test. He wanted to make sure there was enough material to get a blood type result. Some of the material he lifted from the 8 baffles he did AK tests on but got no results and the rest he did blood typing but got no results. He didn't expect to get any considering how small the traces he found were.

Should he have divided the blood near the opening in half and done blood typing on half and AK testing on the other?  Even in hindsight there is no way to know whether dividing it would have resulted in samples too small to get results. Had he or the lab saved some of this blood instead of expending it we would have had blood to DNA test but they didn't think at the time about such potential down the road.

So all we know is that Lincoln removed group A blood and the lab removed group A blood with AK1 which only could have come from Sheila.   

Finding any victim blood in there is bad for your position.  The notion Sheila went to the closet to get the moderator to attach it and use it then removed it and put it away in the closet before killing herself is absurd. In any even even the defense's own expert conceded the blood the prosecution tested could have come only from Sheila. 

Boutflour had no idea what blood type Sheila was let alone knew he even had the same enzymes so notions he planted his blood inside are not the least bit credible.  Furthermore, if he had used a dropper it would not have hit the first 8 baffles nor have left a flake in between the first 2 baffles. The distribution of blood was blood in diminishing quantity on each successive baffle.  That is consistent with drawback.  The largest drops can't travel as far plus each baffle blocks the ones behind to an extent.  Only smaller drops can travel deeper inside and there will be fewer and fewer drops left as they hit the prior plates. 

Time and again I see the same argument from Jeremy supporters/former supporters who doubt the blood evidence.  They argue Jeremy's lawyers would not be trying to do tests to discredit the blood in the moderator if Jeremy did in fact use the moderator because Jeremy would know tests might confirm his guilt.

The same argument has been made when lawyers of convicted rapists demanded DNA tests.  Guess what a sizable number of such convicts are proven to be guilty by such tests despite demanding them.  They hope and pray that someone else's DNA was on the victim or that the results will somehow end up providing a way for the defense to attack despite being guilty. 

Convicted people have nothing to lose they are already jailed and thus a test that fails to help them is meaningless.  They want any and all testing in hopes of trying to twist the results in their favor. 

In another case many years after the conviction DNA testing was done on a scarf (victim was strangled with it), victims shirt and victim's bra.  It was all the DNA of the same person.  The convict could not be excluded. DNA testing of a thumbnail revealed DNA of and unknown male that was ruled out as being that of the convict.

Did the defense conceded defeat since the testing they demanded supported guilt of their client?  No they argued the convicts DNA was on the scarf because it was his scarf and there was so much DNA on it the killer must have gotten it on his hands and then transferred such DNA to the shirt and bra.

But they rule out any chance of contamination of DNA to the thumb and say the DNA on the thumb must have belonged to the killer.  Experts though said the complete opposite they said that since the DNA was the same person on all 3 objects this supports it being the killer's DNA particularly since the statistical odds were significant when the suspect was tied to the victim by other evidence.  They said when other evidence ties the victim to the donor the odds are significant.  As for the thumbnail, they noted:

1) the victim was bound thus unlikely to have been able to scratch her attacker
2) when a victim scratches an attacker there is some sort of trauma to the nails but was none
3) the fingers not thumb are mainly used to scratch
4) no precautions were taken during the collecting of evidence or handling of evidence in the lab to prevent DNA contamination
5) the amount of DNA found was very tiny and had to be replicated just to be able to get a result and thus it is ripe for contamination on a variety of levels.

Defense lawyers have no problem trying to twist results and supporters or other people with an agenda do the same.  So the notion that if Jeremy used the moderator he would not allow his lawyers etc to do testing is nonsense. He wants testing so he and his advocates can try to twist the results in his favor.

Trying to twist results accomplishes little though in most instances.  The testing they are doing can't prove it is impossible to ever get results after superglue fuming and thus s a waste of time.  ONLY if they can prove to a court that testing results can never be obtained after superglue fuming would this provide a basis to vacate the conviction.  They would need to plan a est so large it has the ability to prove such.  But we already know they have successfully achieved results in the past and that this would be a  complete waste of time.

At most supporters will spin the results and try to use them for propaganda purposes to the public.  That won't help Jeremy get his conviction vacated.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2016, 11:51:18 AM »
The blood stains on the metal portion of the rifle were even smaller than the stains on the stock. Nevill's arms and skull provided minimal levels of blood to hit the weapon. Potentially his jaw could deposit more blood but it still would still be back spatter and not necessarily that big. We don't know precisely how much blood was flowing outside of his jaw/lip versus inside. We also don't know if he got hit in the jaw.  We know he was punched or stuck in the nose/eye region but it is unclear whether damage to his jaw was done by the bullets alone or being hit.

Aside from the fact that spatter is not very big, larger bits of spatter travel less far. So only the smallest spatter could travel to the metal parts of the weapon.  The larger spatter would not travel as far so only hit the stock and killer. Larger doesn't mean large though the terms are relative. As I already mentioned the killer was touching the stock both during the bludgeoning and after to fire the weapon so the blood was disturbed. It did not instantly dry.
Scipio I have taken the time to read your lengthy post in its entirety but I can't see how paragraphys 9 - 14 inclusive are relevant to the case let alone the thread?  Can I ask please, that where possible, you stick to thread topic as per forum rules. 

You have made many, many posts telling us had SC been the perp she would have been covered in high impact back spatter from the victims' gunshot wounds and medium impact spatter from the beating it appears NB sustained most likely from the rifle.  Now it appears you are saying that this spatter was minimal hence the lab and Dr Lincoln were unable to find sufficient blood for group testing?  Which is it?

The blood on the outside of the silencer was minimal hence the lab did not even attempt blood grouping.  This was not the case with the rifle.  John Hayward attempted to group for ABO (antigens) and Hp (protein).  Group O was identified but this was deemed inconclusive as it did not meet the labs internal procedures/standards for a conclusive result.

Silencer

"Mr Hayward considered that in view of the very small amounts of staining present on the outside of the moderator, there was no point in attempting to determine the group of the blood."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

Rifle

"Attempts were made to determine the ABO and the Hp groups of the bloodstains shown to be human but these were not successful".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

Enough blood remained right inside the opening for Lincoln to test it and determine it was group A.  Since it was not a large amount he didn't do an AK test. He wanted to make sure there was enough material to get a blood type result. Some of the material he lifted from the 8 baffles he did AK tests on but got no results and the rest he did blood typing but got no results. He didn't expect to get any considering how small the traces he found were.

Should he have divided the blood near the opening in half and done blood typing on half and AK testing on the other?  Even in hindsight there is no way to know whether dividing it would have resulted in samples too small to get results. Had he or the lab saved some of this blood instead of expending it we would have had blood to DNA test but they didn't think at the time about such potential down the road.

So all we know is that Lincoln removed group A blood and the lab removed group A blood with AK1 which only could have come from Sheila.   

As far as I am aware your assertions above are wrong.  If you disagree please provide documentary, or other evidence, showing to the contrary of the following links.  The only blood grouped inside the silencer was the flake (A, EAP BA, HP2-1 and AK-1) and blood on the upper baffle plates (A, EAP BA).

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

There was no blood near the opening.  Had there have been Glynis Howard would have been alerted to it when she examined the silencer on 13th Aug which rather begs the question how blood ended up inside the silencer without touching the opening?

Finding any victim blood in there is bad for your position.  The notion Sheila went to the closet to get the moderator to attach it and use it then removed it and put it away in the closet before killing herself is absurd. In any even even the defense's own expert conceded the blood the prosecution tested could have come only from Sheila.


I agree the notion SC went to the gun cupboard to use the silencer and then returned it before shooting herself is absurd in the extreme.  But that's Geoffrey Rivlin for you.  Completely out of touch with the sensibilities of a jury. 
Boutflour had no idea what blood type Sheila was let alone knew he even had the same enzymes so notions he planted his blood inside are not the least bit credible.  Furthermore, if he had used a dropper it would not have hit the first 8 baffles nor have left a flake in between the first 2 baffles. The distribution of blood was blood in diminishing quantity on each successive baffle.  That is consistent with drawback.  The largest drops can't travel as far plus each baffle blocks the ones behind to an extent.  Only smaller drops can travel deeper inside and there will be fewer and fewer drops left as they hit the prior plates. 

Again I agree.  RB was unlikely to know he shared the same ABO grouping with SC let alone the enzymes and protein. 

I do not agree the distribution/pattern of blood is consistent with 'draw-back'.  If it was it is likely that blood would be present around the opening.  And other blood would would be present around the centre of the baffle plates representing a fine mist consistent with high impact back spatter from a gunshot wound.  Instead we have blood pooling to form a flake under the first or second baffle plate and blood on the upper baffle plates. 

Blood pattern analysis was somewhat in its infancy at the time of JB's trial but it surely wasn't beyond JB's defence to search out expert opinion in this regard even if it meant going further afield eg  US or S.Africa where gun crime was/is commonplace compared with the UK.

Time and again I see the same argument from Jeremy supporters/former supporters who doubt the blood evidence.  They argue Jeremy's lawyers would not be trying to do tests to discredit the blood in the moderator if Jeremy did in fact use the moderator because Jeremy would know tests might confirm his guilt.

There's every reason for anyone looking objectively at the case to doubt the silencer/blood evidence with its questionable 'chain of custody'. 
The same argument has been made when lawyers of convicted rapists demanded DNA tests.  Guess what a sizable number of such convicts are proven to be guilty by such tests despite demanding them.  They hope and pray that someone else's DNA was on the victim or that the results will somehow end up providing a way for the defense to attack despite being guilty. 

Convicted people have nothing to lose they are already jailed and thus a test that fails to help them is meaningless.  They want any and all testing in hopes of trying to twist the results in their favor. 

In another case many years after the conviction DNA testing was done on a scarf (victim was strangled with it), victims shirt and victim's bra.  It was all the DNA of the same person.  The convict could not be excluded. DNA testing of a thumbnail revealed DNA of and unknown male that was ruled out as being that of the convict.

Did the defense conceded defeat since the testing they demanded supported guilt of their client?  No they argued the convicts DNA was on the scarf because it was his scarf and there was so much DNA on it the killer must have gotten it on his hands and then transferred such DNA to the shirt and bra.

But they rule out any chance of contamination of DNA to the thumb and say the DNA on the thumb must have belonged to the killer.  Experts though said the complete opposite they said that since the DNA was the same person on all 3 objects this supports it being the killer's DNA particularly since the statistical odds were significant when the suspect was tied to the victim by other evidence.  They said when other evidence ties the victim to the donor the odds are significant.  As for the thumbnail, they noted:

1) the victim was bound thus unlikely to have been able to scratch her attacker
2) when a victim scratches an attacker there is some sort of trauma to the nails but was none
3) the fingers not thumb are mainly used to scratch
4) no precautions were taken during the collecting of evidence or handling of evidence in the lab to prevent DNA contamination
5) the amount of DNA found was very tiny and had to be replicated just to be able to get a result and thus it is ripe for contamination on a variety of levels.

The above paragraphs have nothing whatsover to do with the case let alone thread.

Defense lawyers have no problem trying to twist results and supporters or other people with an agenda do the same.  So the notion that if Jeremy used the moderator he would not allow his lawyers etc to do testing is nonsense. He wants testing so he and his advocates can try to twist the results in his favor.

Trying to twist results accomplishes little though in most instances.  The testing they are doing can't prove it is impossible to ever get results after superglue fuming and thus s a waste of time.  ONLY if they can prove to a court that testing results can never be obtained after superglue fuming would this provide a basis to vacate the conviction.  They would need to plan a est so large it has the ability to prove such.  But we already know they have successfully achieved results in the past and that this would be a  complete waste of time.

At most supporters will spin the results and try to use them for propaganda purposes to the public.  That won't help Jeremy get his conviction vacated.

It seems to me most JB supporters don't understand the silencer/blood evidence.  In fact I'm not even convinced most defence lawyers do.  Probably out of laziness rather than lack of ability.  I remain totally confident that the silencer/blood evidence will eventually be shown to be fabricated and JB's conviction will be quashed.  At this stage there will quite rightly be uproar and the PM of the day will order a proper inquiry into the whole fiasco which will change the face of British justice forever.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2016, 04:39:49 PM »
I've updated the table to show the blood groupings for the blood on the upper baffles in the silencer.  It still screams out to me begging the question why the flake was able to produce blood results where other exhibits failed.  The inside of the silencer was the only exhibit capable of producing a result for the EAP enzyme and a partial/inconclusive result for the HP protein.  There could of course be plausible reasons for this such as protected from natural and artificial light.  Although I haven't read anything saying light has an adverse affect on bloodstains and subsequent testing.  The info Scipio provided about cyanoacrylate fuming showed the EAP enzyme was adversely affected by the fuming chamber and yet the inside of the silencer (flake and upper baffles) was the only exhibit capable of producing a result for the EAP enzyme  &%+((£

                              ABO   PGM            EAP         AK       Hp             PRB     HIO

Nevill Bamber                 O     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1     Hp2-1
June Bamber                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK2-1   Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell                  O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Nicholas Caffell              O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Sheila Caffell                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1      Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Sil. Flake         A                         EAP BA     AK1    Hp2-1
Blood In Sil. Baffles       A                         EAP BA         
Blood Outside Sil.                                                                                 Y        Y
Rifle                             O                                                                      Y        Y
Carpet Sample 20         A*                                        AK2-1                            Y
Carpet Sample 21         A*                                        AK2-1                            Y                 
Socks                            A                                          AK2-1                            Y                   
Watch                                                                                                   Y        Y   
Carpet Fibres 95         O                                          AK2-1                   Y         
Carpet Fibres 96          A*                                                                    Y
Wallpaper                    O
Jacket                                                                                                    Y       Y
Bathrobe                                                                                               Y        Y
Car                                                                                                        Y       Y inconclusive
Nightdress                    A                                       AK-1**

Bold  = Indicative results but not conclusive insofar as results did not meet the labs criteria for a definitive
* = Performed or repeated by Dr Lincoln
** = No photograpic evidence but on lab worksheet
Photographs show results other than for ABO groupings 
Sil. = Silencer

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

PRB = Positive Reaction For Blood

HIO = Human In Origin (Blood)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 03:58:49 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2016, 05:27:40 PM »
I'm not sure if this means something or nothing...

It appears John Hayward (Home Office scientist/biologist) led Dr Lincoln (for the defence) to believe that the flake had been disolved whole and the content then used for carry out the five tests:  ABO groupings, enzymes: EAP, PGM, AK and protein HP.  What actually happened was that John Hayward had separated the whole flake into five parts for each individual test.

Did John Hayward set out to deceive or was there some genuine misunderstanding between the pair?

Dr Lincoln's letter to JB's defence:  (Bottom of first page, top of second).

"Mr Hayward stated that he had found a flake of blood trapped under the first or second baffle plate.  He used this single flake to produce a solution form which he was able to determine the groups: A, EAP BA, HP 2.1 and AK1.  This means that the explanation set out in my previous letters cannot be entertained".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

However at JB's 2002 CoA hearing:

461. On 8 September 1986, Dr Lincoln again went to the laboratory and this time met and discussed the matter with Mr Hayward. As a result of this meeting, Dr Lincoln appreciated that the blood tested all came from a single flake trapped under the first or second baffle. In a letter to the defence solicitors, Dr Lincoln said that Mr Hayward "used this single flake to produce a solution from which he was able to determine the groups". He said that this meant that the possible explanation he had earlier suggested as to a combination of more than one persons blood no longer applied.

462. In one respect Dr Lincoln was in error. Whether that error was from something said by Mr Hayward or simply from an assumption made by Dr Lincoln cannot now be ascertained and matters not. The error was to suggest that the whole of the blood flake was dissolved and the resulting solution was used for all the tests. In fact what had happened was that the flake had been divided into a number of parts and each part had then been used for a separate group test. Thus the tests were not done on liquid drawn from the same solution made from the whole flake but on separate solutions each made from distinct parts of the flake. We have no means of knowing whether correction of this error would in any way have altered Dr Lincoln's view.


http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 05:36:03 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2016, 05:46:30 PM »
Actually by the misunderstanding in post #52 it enabled the prosecution to argue that the flake comprising a mixture of NB and June's blood was "a remote possibility" when it should have been considered a real possibility.

464.

vii) In the circumstances it was wrong to characterise the possibility that the group testing results came from a mixture of the blood of Mr and Mrs Bamber as "a remote possibility" and it should have been considered to be a real possibility

Either way whether the whole flake was dissolved or not I struggle to see it representing a mixture of NB and June's blood. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2016, 05:51:10 PM »
I'm not sure if this means something or nothing...

It appears John Hayward (Home Office scientist/biologist) led Dr Lincoln (for the defence) to believe that the flake had been disolved whole and the content then used for carry out the five tests:  ABO groupings, enzymes: EAP, PGM, AK and protein HP.  What actually happened was that John Hayward had separated the whole flake into five parts for each individual test.

Did John Hayward set out to deceive or was there some genuine misunderstanding between the pair?

Dr Lincoln's letter to JB's defence:  (Bottom of first page, top of second).

"Mr Hayward stated that he had found a flake of blood trapped under the first or second baffle plate.  He used this single flake to produce a solution form which he was able to determine the groups: A, EAP BA, HP 2.1 and AK1.  This means that the explanation set out in my previous letters cannot be entertained".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

However at JB's 2002 CoA hearing:

461. On 8 September 1986, Dr Lincoln again went to the laboratory and this time met and discussed the matter with Mr Hayward. As a result of this meeting, Dr Lincoln appreciated that the blood tested all came from a single flake trapped under the first or second baffle. In a letter to the defence solicitors, Dr Lincoln said that Mr Hayward "used this single flake to produce a solution from which he was able to determine the groups". He said that this meant that the possible explanation he had earlier suggested as to a combination of more than one persons blood no longer applied.

462. In one respect Dr Lincoln was in error. Whether that error was from something said by Mr Hayward or simply from an assumption made by Dr Lincoln cannot now be ascertained and matters not. The error was to suggest that the whole of the blood flake was dissolved and the resulting solution was used for all the tests. In fact what had happened was that the flake had been divided into a number of parts and each part had then been used for a separate group test. Thus the tests were not done on liquid drawn from the same solution made from the whole flake but on separate solutions each made from distinct parts of the flake. We have no means of knowing whether correction of this error would in any way have altered Dr Lincoln's view.


http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

It means nothing.  Lincoln wrote in his first report that it was unclear whether the type testing was done to blood obtained from a single area or whether multiple areas were swabbed using the same swab and then tested.  He said that if multiple areas were swabbed together then it could be a mixture of blood.  This is the same argument made in the Knox case.  In the Knox case the same swab was used to swab multiple areas of the bathroom and thus could have mixed together blood/DNA that was not mixed originally.  Lincoln noted the same possibility if swabbing multiple areas except only discussed the blood aspect not DNA.

Subsequently he learned a single flake was tested not blood that was from multiple areas and thus declared in his second report that the he learned they tested a single area and thus his mixed blood possibility did not apply.

     

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2016, 06:01:50 PM »
Actually by the misunderstanding in post #52 it enabled the prosecution to argue that the flake comprising a mixture of NB and June's blood was "a remote possibility" when it should have been considered a real possibility.

464.

vii) In the circumstances it was wrong to characterise the possibility that the group testing results came from a mixture of the blood of Mr and Mrs Bamber as "a remote possibility" and it should have been considered to be a real possibility

Either way whether the whole flake was dissolved or not I struggle to see it representing a mixture of NB and June's blood.

There is no distinction between:

A) dissolving it and then separating it into 5 parts to do 5 different tests

B) cutting it up into 5 parts then dissolving each part separately.

that could enable a mixture to exist but be missed.

The issue Lincoln raised was the possibility the lab itself mixed blood from two different areas of the moderator (hence mixed blood from 2 different blood stains) and the possibility each stain was from a different person thus mixing stains from 2 people.

He posited this possibility at a time when it was unclear to him where the blood that was tested came from.  Upon learning the results were obtained from a single flake (hence single blood stain) he said this possibility was ruled out.  Lincoln also tested his blood from a single area he did not mix the blood he detected from the baffles with it.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2016, 06:16:28 PM »
Scipio I have taken the time to read your lengthy post in its entirety but I can't see how paragraphys 9 - 14 inclusive are relevant to the case let alone the thread?  Can I ask please, that where possible, you stick to thread topic as per forum rules. 

You have made many, many posts telling us had SC been the perp she would have been covered in high impact back spatter from the victims' gunshot wounds and medium impact spatter from the beating it appears NB sustained most likely from the rifle.  Now it appears you are saying that this spatter was minimal hence the lab and Dr Lincoln were unable to find sufficient blood for group testing?  Which is it?

The blood on the outside of the silencer was minimal hence the lab did not even attempt blood grouping.  This was not the case with the rifle.  John Hayward attempted to group for ABO (antigens) and Hp (protein).  Group O was identified but this was deemed inconclusive as it did not meet the labs internal procedures/standards for a conclusive result.

Silencer

"Mr Hayward considered that in view of the very small amounts of staining present on the outside of the moderator, there was no point in attempting to determine the group of the blood."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

Rifle

"Attempts were made to determine the ABO and the Hp groups of the bloodstains shown to be human but these were not successful".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

As far as I am aware your assertions above are wrong.  If you disagree please provide documentary, or other evidence, showing to the contrary of the following links.  The only blood grouped inside the silencer was the flake (A, EAP BA, HP2-1 and AK-1) and blood on the upper baffle plates (A, EAP BA).

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

There was no blood near the opening.  Had there have been Glynis Howard would have been alerted to it when she examined the silencer on 13th Aug which rather begs the question how blood ended up inside the silencer without touching the opening?
 

I agree the notion SC went to the gun cupboard to use the silencer and then returned it before shooting herself is absurd in the extreme.  But that's Geoffrey Rivlin for you.  Completely out of touch with the sensibilities of a jury. 
Again I agree.  RB was unlikely to know he shared the same ABO grouping with SC let alone the enzymes and protein. 

I do not agree the distribution/pattern of blood is consistent with 'draw-back'.  If it was it is likely that blood would be present around the opening.  And other blood would would be present around the centre of the baffle plates representing a fine mist consistent with high impact back spatter from a gunshot wound.  Instead we have blood pooling to form a flake under the first or second baffle plate and blood on the upper baffle plates. 

Blood pattern analysis was somewhat in its infancy at the time of JB's trial but it surely wasn't beyond JB's defence to search out expert opinion in this regard even if it meant going further afield eg  US or S.Africa where gun crime was/is commonplace compared with the UK.

There's every reason for anyone looking objectively at the case to doubt the silencer/blood evidence with its questionable 'chain of custody'. 
The above paragraphs have nothing whatsover to do with the case let alone thread.
It seems to me most JB supporters don't understand the silencer/blood evidence.  In fact I'm not even convinced most defence lawyers do.  Probably out of laziness rather than lack of ability.  I remain totally confident that the silencer/blood evidence will eventually be shown to be fabricated and JB's conviction will be quashed.  At this stage there will quite rightly be uproar and the PM of the day will order a proper inquiry into the whole fiasco which will change the face of British justice forever.

I didn't say the killer would have large blood stains and be dripping in blood.  I said the rifle had spatter on it and clear so would the killer. That doesn't mean the spatter would be huge drops. It often is small enough that killer's don't see it which is why many get caught. Since the stock had spatter and the killer had to touch it to fire that means some of the spatter would have been wiped onto the killer's clothing or hands as well. It would have most likely been in the hair as well that is another area attackers often miss.  When there is a bludgeoning with a weapon that draws a lot of blood and makes a real mess then the killer will obviously see the blood and know to take a bath and get rid of their clothing. This wasn't an axe murder though.

Blood removed from the inside opening of the moderator by Howard is what was tested to see whether it was human blood. She noted several areas that tested positive outside as well as the blood she tested from the inside opening.

Lincoln noted that because the stains were small and most was expended doing tests to see whether the blood was human it was not surprising that the remnants were insufficient for the lab to successfully blood type.

In addition to Howard finding blood inside the opening and the lab testing the flake and blood on the baffles Lincoln himself tested blood he removed from the inside opening.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2016, 06:22:17 PM »
Howard's statement noting blood was found inside as well as out

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2016, 09:39:05 AM »
It means nothing.  Lincoln wrote in his first report that it was unclear whether the type testing was done to blood obtained from a single area or whether multiple areas were swabbed using the same swab and then tested.  He said that if multiple areas were swabbed together then it could be a mixture of blood.  This is the same argument made in the Knox case.  In the Knox case the same swab was used to swab multiple areas of the bathroom and thus could have mixed together blood/DNA that was not mixed originally.  Lincoln noted the same possibility if swabbing multiple areas except only discussed the blood aspect not DNA.

Subsequently he learned a single flake was tested not blood that was from multiple areas and thus declared in his second report that the he learned they tested a single area and thus his mixed blood possibility did not apply.

Are you able to upload the first report please?  I don't think we have it here.

It seems from the CoA doc that Dr Lincoln initially fed back to JB's defence the possibility that John Hayward might have swabbed different parts of the silencer obtaining the four blood results which matched SC's blood group but this could have represented a combination of NB and June's blood results which would also match SC's blood group.  Dr Lincoln then came to understand from John Hayward the blood tested came from a single source ie the flake and that the flake was dissolved whole and from this solution the five group tests were carried out thus pretty much ruling out the possibility the blood/flake represented a combination of NB's and June's.  The misunderstanding involves the fact that although John Hayward used blood from a single source ie the flake it was not in fact dissolved whole put separated into five parts.  Each of the five parts were then dissolved and the resulting solution from each used for one of the five tests.  This method according to the CoA doc meant that the probability of the blood representing NB's and June's shifted to "a real possibility".

- Was Dr Lincoln deliberately deceived to secure the conviction the prosecution were looking for?

- Was the method of separating the flake into five parts and then dissolving to carry out the group tests an established method?  I think it must have been otherwise Mark Webster at the CoA hearing would have been alerted to it.

- What are the advantages/disadvantages to both methods and when would they be used?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 09:47:55 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2016, 10:33:28 AM »
Howard's statement noting blood was found inside as well as out
Is this document authenticated by way of a signature anywhere?

The original sketch drawn by Glynnis Howard shows blood staining on three places which corresponds with the CoA hearing and does not include blood inside the silencer:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1026.0;attach=2053

Scientific examination of the sound moderator 75. Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.

How does blood enter a silencer via 'draw-back' from a gunshot wound and yet avoid leaving a trace around the opening?   &%+((£
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?