Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.  (Read 18404 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2016, 11:06:19 AM »
I've always enjoyed robust mass debating!

Actually perhaps vigorous is a more appropriate word  &%+((£

I do miss Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 11:24:21 AM »
Actually perhaps vigorous is a more appropriate word  &%+((£

I do miss Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight.

Kirsty's tracksuit bottoms should suit you to a T.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline sika

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 04:01:22 PM »
I've always enjoyed robust mass debating!
Holly, for what it's worth, whilst you never succeed in persuading me of Jeremy's innocence,  I think you, more than any other supporter, makes the most persuasive arguments.  You also manage to do it in good humour, and don't take any criticism to heart.

I genuinely struggle to understand how someone as clever as you, can believe that Jezza is innocent!

I will get back to you with a comprehensive list of reasons, that convince me of his guilt.  Must go and get my bets on now.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2016, 02:49:55 PM »
Holly, for what it's worth, whilst you never succeed in persuading me of Jeremy's innocence,  I think you, more than any other supporter, makes the most persuasive arguments.  You also manage to do it in good humour, and don't take any criticism to heart.

I genuinely struggle to understand how someone as clever as you, can believe that Jezza is innocent!

I will get back to you with a comprehensive list of reasons, that convince me of his guilt.  Must go and get my bets on now.

Thanks Sika.  I look forward to hearing your list of reasons when you have time.   Did you get lucky on Rule The World?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2016, 03:05:56 PM »
I don't find there's anything "nutshell" about the case.  I think it is very complex not just from an evidential perspective but also the entire judicial system from investigation to trial.  And many other factors such as media involvement in shaping opinion.

We all have different backgrounds by way of life experiences, education etc and process information very  differently so it is not surprising we arrive at different conclusions.  When I say we I mean anyone who has an opinion on the case whether they be lay or professional.  I don't believe enough experts have given opinion based on modern forensic science.  Modern Forensic science was just coming to the fore at the time of JB's trial.  Unfortunately blood pattern analysis was not used at trial and DNA evidence was not even available then.

Imo only expert opinion is capable of fundamentally changing the direction of the case based on modern forensic science.

I will give one example of why I believe the case is complex and the trial verdict potentially wrong.  It was said by investigating officers eg DI Cook that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle (only one was found).  Many posters also make this contention.  I've posted research which suggests that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to texture.   I have also exchanged emails with arguably one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints and he has advised the same due to the coating on firearms known as 'bluing'.

Puglove did make a point a while back about the wood stock and next time I speak with the expert I will endeavour to clarify this.  Based on my email exchange with the expert I think he would have said if fingerprints can usually be found on the stock but it's not good to assume so for the sake of completeness I will check and report back.

I accept fingerprints are only one small aspect of the case but to my mind it shows incompetence among investigating officers.  DI Cook was regarded as the fingerprint expert with 19 years experience.  I don't necessarily blame him.  What sort of training did he receive?  Who was supervising him?  Was he keeping up-to-date with his knowledge?

Email exchange between expert and myself sent to Myster for confirmation.  I will not be putting this info in the public domain as the expert no doubt communicated with me on the basis of confidentiality.

I don't agree Holly.  Having read just about everything there is in the public domain about this case and having studied the evidence I find it rather cut and dried.   And that is even before I input Julie Mugford's excellent contribution.

I have always said I have an open mind and would always consider carefully any new evidence which could undermine his conviction.  I know only too well what it is like to be wrongfully prosecuted, to have State entities tell a load of lies about you to a jury and not being able to do anything about it.  If I thought for a moment that Jeremy was innocent I would do all I could to support him but that appears further away than ever.  As it stands I just can't see him being innocent of involvement in the massacre of his family.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 04:28:45 PM »
This case is not any different from most. It is not complex from a legal standpoint it was very straightforward.  You ignore the evidence that proves Jeremy guilty and create strawmen. Jeremy wasn't convicted on the basis that if Sheila was guilty there would have been more of her prints on the weapon. This is a strawman created to imply there was no substantial evidence.  He was convicted because a witness said he was planning to kill his family and to frame Sheila, physical evidence established that Sheila was murdered and framed, his various lies and claims about being phoned by Nevill which were not in the least bit credible. He wasn't convicted on a whim.

It is not unique for people to become supporters and to ignore evidence and try to pretend there was insufficient evidence to convict in cases like this where there is substantial evidence.  This happens in a great number of cases.  Look at the recent publicity in the Steven Avery case. Teresa Halbach went to his property and that was the last time she was heard from.  Aside from a confession from Avery's nephew her vehicle was found hidden in brush on his property, her license was found in his home, her blood was found in his home and more.  As we speak people are suggesting that someone planted Teresa Halbach's car and all the other evidence in order to frame him.  This is no different than the wild claims about Jeremy being framed and there are plenty of other cases where the same unsupported claims are made of a great deal of evidence being planted. What is rare and unique are cases where it has been proven that significant amounts of evidence were actually planted.

I acknowledged the lack of fingerprints on the rifle was a fairly insignificant aspect of the case.  The reason I made the point was to highlight incompetence among investigating officers especially DI Cook who was responsible for fingerprinting.  I'm not sure it even made its way to trial?  DS Jones made much of whether or not JB wore gloves re his claims of bunny hunting.  JM's testimony included claims that JB feared a glove might have fallen off.  Even Paul Harrison's book claims JB wiped the rifle with the blue socks.  Well it seems they were all wrong as firearms and fingerprints don't mix.  Google 'firearms and fingerprints' and check it out for yourself.  Wow I hope no one nicks my idea(s)  8)><( 

The above can set trains of thought along certain tracks.

What physical evidence would you expect to find on SC? 

There's no evidence of hand-to-hand combat between victims and SC or JB.

June was shot whilst in bed and NB on the stairs imo but even if NB was shot in bed as you claim these initial shots were fired at a distance of around 3' away plus the length of the rifle separated victim and perp.  Enough distance to avoid the perp sustaining any blood spatter from the Eley .22 hollow point subsonic bullets if indeed they were capable of producing any back spatter.  There's no blood stains anywhere indicative of blood spatter/high impact velocity spatter eg on the bedding, victims' nightwear, carpets, walls, furniture or rifle.  Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound it reduces blood presssure reducing the potential for back spatter from any subsequent gunshot wounds.

Although the bullets are low velocity they are lethal due to the hollow point design.  The first shots fired would have incapacitated June and NB to such a degree it would not be possible for them to put up any resistance.  The idea that NB could sustain two hollow point bullets in his face fired at close range and a further shot to the back of his shoulder causing total incapacitation to his left arm and  yet put up some sort of "violent struggle" is just not plausible imo. 

The UK and US  have strict laws restricting the use of hollow point bullets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9nXeXqEho

It is also claimed the perp beat NB with the rifle, or some other blunt instrument, but there's no evidence this caused medium impact spatter normally associated from a blunt weapon.  Again there's no medium impact spatter anywhere eg rifle, NB's pyjamas, floor, walls, furniture, ceiling.

Why would you expect to find spatter on the perp and none elsewhere?

Whether SC was the perp or a victim the rifle was found resting across her chest with her hand/fingers also resting on the rifle.   The rifle was fired a total of 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained two contact wounds I don't buy into the lack of GSR argument.  I believe SC's nightdress was tested weeks later and her hands were swabbed at PM AFTER they had been placed in bags and her body moved. 

I think most just cannot get their heads round a female, especially a middle class, attractive and slim one, meting out the sort of violence evidenced at WHF.  Females are traditionally seen as nurturing and passive and men as aggressive.  This is clearly a myth regardless of mental health issues.  In the UK during the last few days 3 young females have been given lengthy prison sentences for very serious acts of violence.  Happens all the time. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 04:33:03 PM »
I don't agree Holly.  Having read just about everything there is in the public domain about this case and having studied the evidence I find it rather cut and dried.   And that is even before I input Julie Mugford's excellent contribution.

I have always said I have an open mind and would always consider carefully any new evidence which could undermine his conviction.  I know only too well what it is like to be wrongfully prosecuted, to have State entities tell a load of lies about you to a jury and not being able to do anything about it.  If I thought for a moment that Jeremy was innocent I would do all I could to support him but that appears further away than ever.  As it stands I just can't see him being innocent of involvement in the massacre of his family.

Yes we don't agree on the case but at least we are able to debate it civilly.  And thank you for letting me post my polar opposite views on your forum  8((()*/ X
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2016, 04:44:16 PM »
Yes we don't agree on the case but at least we are able to debate it civilly.  And thank you for letting me post my polar opposite views on your forum  8((()*/ X

I welcome your views and fair play to you for airing them so forthrightly.  I have a sneaky suspicion though that you are not as sold on Jeremy being innocent as you sometimes proclaim?   Could I be right per chance? £4%4%
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline sika

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2016, 05:11:47 PM »
I welcome your views and fair play to you for airing them so forthrightly.  I have a sneaky suspicion though that you are not as sold on Jeremy being innocent as you sometimes proclaim?   Could I be right per chance? £4%4%
I suspect so, too.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2016, 07:42:49 PM »
I acknowledged the lack of fingerprints on the rifle was a fairly insignificant aspect of the case.  The reason I made the point was to highlight incompetence among investigating officers especially DI Cook who was responsible for fingerprinting.  I'm not sure it even made its way to trial?  DS Jones made much of whether or not JB wore gloves re his claims of bunny hunting.  JM's testimony included claims that JB feared a glove might have fallen off.  Even Paul Harrison's book claims JB wiped the rifle with the blue socks.  Well it seems they were all wrong as firearms and fingerprints don't mix.  Google 'firearms and fingerprints' and check it out for yourself.  Wow I hope no one nicks my idea(s)  8)><( 

1) the killer wearing gloves explains why there was no prints in blood.  The suspect and victim all had reasons for their prints to be at WHF. Thus finding their prints would mean nothing.  Prints in blood in contrast would be evidence of who the killer was. The weapon had blood on it, particularly the stock. The killer's hand was touching the bloody stock.  The killer would have left bloody prints on the weapon and it could have gotten on the killer's fingers to be left elsewhere. Gloves are what would prevent such. This is why gloves were a big deal. If they could prove that Jeremy had gloves that vanished right after the murders...

2) Cook didn't believe Jeremy was guilty at first.  he agreed with Taff Jones.  Both of them ignored considerable evidence. Saying he had lousy intuition and didn't investigate what he should have hurts Jeremy supporters because it is saying the cop that was supporting you was an inept fool and that is why police didn't realize even sooner that Jeremy did it.

3) The blood on the socks are static drips of June's blood. The round drops are made by static drips.  Harrison's suggestion that the socks were used to wipe blood is false.  All the socks prove is that June stood over them dripping blood on them.  IF the socks were in that place when June dripped blood on them it means she walked that far around the bed. If they were in a different location when she bled on them and they were moved subsequently then maybe June didn't walk that far around the bed before turning around.  Because of the carpet testing we know she was at the foot of Nevill's side of the bed.  It makes little difference whether she walked another foot on Nevill's side or simply turned around and walked back.  Maybe Jeremy moved the socks to try to get police to June had been on Nevill's side of the bed when shot.  I doubt Jeremy had that much forethought and
find it much more likely they were not moved. There is no way to know for sure whether they were moved or not unless Jeremy decided to confess fully and accurately detail everything.
 

The above can set trains of thought along certain tracks.

What physical evidence would you expect to find on SC? 

There's no evidence of hand-to-hand combat between victims and SC or JB.

One would expect to find medium velocity back spatter and gunshot residue on the killer's clothing and body.  Sheila had none. Jeremy's clothing was not taken and tested right away and his body was not inspected.  Jeremy had the ability to wash and change before calling police so there is no way to know what he was wearing.

Sheila had no reason to wash and change and no ability to change her clothes without her evidence stained clothing being found at the scene.

Furthermore, one would expect the right hand of the killer to have some damage form when the stock of the weapon broke. At minimum the killer would have suffered scratching and splinters if not an actual cut UNLESS the killer was wearing gloves.  Moreover, using the weapon to batter will cause blistering to a hand. There will be friction damage.  So in addition to preventing the killer's prints being left in blood the gloves also would have protected the killer's hand from damage.

Sheila had no damage of any kind to her hands.

Also there would be damage to her long nails if she had been using the weapon to batter Nevill.  No damage of any kind was observed.

 
June was shot whilst in bed and NB on the stairs imo but even if NB was shot in bed as you claim these initial shots were fired at a distance of around 3' away plus the length of the rifle separated victim and perp.  Enough distance to avoid the perp sustaining any blood spatter from the Eley .22 hollow point subsonic bullets if indeed they were capable of producing any back spatter.  There's no blood stains anywhere indicative of blood spatter/high impact velocity spatter eg on the bedding, victims' nightwear, carpets, walls, furniture or rifle.  Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound it reduces blood presssure reducing the potential for back spatter from any subsequent gunshot wounds.

You are conflating a number of issues.

1) Multiple wounds in close proximity actually increases the likelihood of spatter it doesn't reduce it. 

2) The distance of the shots was close enough that the killer could have been hit with high velocity spatter

3) The location of the wounds will dictate whether spatter would have occurred

4) High velocity impact spatter is very small, it is very easy for police to miss.  Only if they tested all the bedding and objects for the presence of blood and yet found none could you saw whether any spatter hit any objects or not.  They did not do such testing so we have no way to assert anything in this regard.

5) Not only the shooter but others nearby a victims when shot cane be hit with high velocity spatter.

Were there wounds that could have resulted in high velocity impact spatter?  yes

Was the shooter close enough to get hit by high velocity impact spatter?  yes

Did they find any high velocity impact spatter on Sheila?  No so there was no basis to go further and try to assess whether it was the product of her doing the shooting or simply being nearby while a victim was shot.

Did they test Jeremy for high velocity impact spatter?  No.  More than a month later they seized some of his clothing but by that time he could have disposed of whatever he wore or laundered it. They found tiny red marks on a jacket but were unable to determine what substance the marks were.  As such they could not establish he was hit with high velocity impact spatter though he may have been.

In the absence of actually finding impact spatter the only way to establish for sure the killer would have been hit by high velocity impact spatter would be if:

1) it were determined a shot was in a location that definitely would result in high velocity impact back spatter

and

2) the range of the shot for sure was a distance at which the killer would have to have been hit by it

No experts assessed that any of the gunshot wounds for sure would have resulted in impact spatter and at a range where the killer would have been hit for sure.  This is why it was never argued anywhere that Sheila would have had high velocity impact spatter had she been the killer.  It is why I have stated many times that while it is possible the Jeremy got hit with high velocity spatter we don't know for sure.

While it is true that the killer did not necessarily get hit with high velocity spatter you present inaccurate info wile arriving at your conclusion. I don't correct the record in order to show off I correct the record to prevent any of the errors from being applied in other cases or even in this case.

Although the bullets are low velocity they are lethal due to the hollow point design.  The first shots fired would have incapacitated June and NB to such a degree it would not be possible for them to put up any resistance.  The idea that NB could sustain two hollow point bullets in his face fired at close range and a further shot to the back of his shoulder causing total incapacitation to his left arm and  yet put up some sort of "violent struggle" is just not plausible imo. 

The UK and US  have strict laws restricting the use of hollow point bullets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9nXeXqEho

Nevill was shot in the master bedroom in the lip and the jaw.  The medical experts said these wounds were not serious enough to inhibit his mobility.  This is supported not only by considerable medical evidence but by the fact he did in fact walk from the bedroom to the kitchen after receiving such wounds.  June's first wound was a very serious headshot that would have killed her in short order. Despite such and being shot 5 more times right away, she got out of bed and walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door before collapsing. That was a much more serious wound than the Nevill's lip and jaw wounds.

Your opinion that Nevill would not have been able to fight back is not a scientific one it is one you have based purely on your bias in this case where you don't want to face the truth. That same bias makes you close your eyes to the considerable evidence Nevill was beaten with the butt of the rifle.  You know that th ekiller woudl have been hit with medium velocity spatter and sheila would have damaged her nails so pretend it never happened so you can still pretend in your mind that Sheila did it.

It is also claimed the perp beat NB with the rifle, or some other blunt instrument, but there's no evidence this caused medium impact spatter normally associated from a blunt weapon.  Again there's no medium impact spatter anywhere eg rifle, NB's pyjamas, floor, walls, furniture, ceiling.

Why would you expect to find spatter on the perp and none elsewhere?

Whether SC was the perp or a victim the rifle was found resting across her chest with her hand/fingers also resting on the rifle.   The rifle was fired a total of 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained two contact wounds I don't buy into the lack of GSR argument.  I believe SC's nightdress was tested weeks later and her hands were swabbed at PM AFTER they had been placed in bags and her body moved. 

I think most just cannot get their heads round a female, especially a middle class, attractive and slim one, meting out the sort of violence evidenced at WHF.  Females are traditionally seen as nurturing and passive and men as aggressive.  This is clearly a myth regardless of mental health issues.  In the UK during the last few days 3 young females have been given lengthy prison sentences for very serious acts of violence.  Happens all the time.

How many times are you going to hide from reality?  The stock of the weapon had medium velocity impact spatter on it as did some of the metal parts of the rifle.  In the past you denied the stock had blood on it and I proved you were wrong and that it did.  The blood would not have simply hit the weapon but also the person holding it.  Someone touching a bloody stock would leave their prints in such blood and also transfer such blood to other objects they touched. When firing the weapon subsequently the stock would be against the clothing of the shooter and transfer it. The spatter that got on the stock was thus subsequently smeared.

You continuously present the false claim that they analyzed all the blood on all the objects though they didn't.  They didn't take all objects that had blood, didn't record all blood drops that might have been on furnishings and  they destroyed plenty of things that had blood including the quilt.  You simply make up the quilt had no blood though you can't say such unless they had tested it and found no blood. 

You want to pretend Nevill was beaten while he was unconscious instead of as he was trying to defend himself.

You ignore the casings that were in the bedroom and the bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom, ignore that it is impossible to deliver any of Nevill's wounds if he had been on the stairs and simply say he was shot on the stairs anyway. 

You decided that you want to believe Jeremy is innocent and try casting the evidence in a way that comports with your desired beliefs as opposed to simply taking the evidence as it is and following it to its logical conclusion.

Destroying the bedding without testing it prevents us from knowing how much blood was on it, where any blood was and whose blood it was. It is totally inaccurate to say that because it was destroyed without being tested that means there was no blood of Nevill's on it. This is just one example where you turn things on their head.  in fact you turn thing son their head by admitting spatter doesn't always occur and yet saying there would have to be spatter from Nevill on the bed if he were sitting on it when he was shot in the lip and jaw. That's not true  and thus the lack of his blood would fail to prove he wasn't shot while sitting on the bed.  The angle of his wounds as well as the location of the casings establish that is where he was shot. Those are reliable indicators which you close your eyes to because they harm your preferred view of Jeremy being innocent.

Your preferred view guides you as opposed to following the evidence where it leads.  If you just follow the evidence without any agenda it makes life far easier because you don't need to contort anyway.  It makes it far easier when you try to explain and justify your views.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2016, 08:19:20 PM »
An excellent post Scipio.  The absence of a single spot of anyone else's blood on Sheila is the clincher for me, this cannot be explained away.  She would not have had time to wash before the calvary arrived and in any event her hair was dry and unwashed.  There wasn't a sngle drop of blood in it.

Jeremy made a classic error in attempting to implicate Sheila because he didn't think through adequately the various scenarios.  The first non fatal shot to Sheila's neck was probably his worst mistake.  He then had to make it look like a double shot suicide, something which is incredibly difficult to fake.  For Sheila to be able to take that second shot meant that she was not incapacitated.  If she was not incapacitated then she had an excruciating burning pain in her neck yet still she never put a finger to it.  I'm afraid it just doesn't work!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 05:09:38 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2016, 09:19:36 PM »
An excellent post Scipio.  The absence of a single spot of anyone else's blood on Sheila is the clincher for me, this cannot be explained away.  She would not have had time to wash before the calvary arrived and in any event her hair was dry and unwashed.  There wasn't a sngle drop of blood in it.

Jeremy made a classic error in attempting to implicate Sheila because he didn't think through adequately the various scenarios.  The first non fatal shot to Sheila's neck was probably his worst mistake.  He then had to make it look like a double shot suicide, something which is incredibly difficult to fake.  For Sheila to be able to take that second shot meant that she was not incapacitated.  If she was not incapacitated then she had an excruciating burning pain in her neck yet still she never put a finger to it.  I'm afraid it just doesn't work!

It is the absence of Nevill's blood which is a huge problem.  His blood was on the weapon and would have hit the killer not just the weapon being wielded by the killer.  The lack of damage of any kind to her hands and nails also reveals she wasn't the one who wielded it. This of course comports with the moderator evidence and Bible evidence (the Bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried). It also comports with the lack of GSR on her clothing and body. 



 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2016, 05:07:14 AM »
I also have a huge problem why Sheila would choose to kill herself in the position she was found, in my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever.  Then there is the assault on her beloved adoptive father Nevill, she adored the man so again I have a real problem with this for so many reasons.  And finally, I agree that foir Sheila to have done what the Bamber supporters claim she did and end up in such a pristine condition is a claim too far.  It just isn't logical by any stretch of the imagination.  I will add that no trace of blood was found in the bathroom or on any towels in the bathroom at the farm which gives further support to the fact that Sheila did not wash after the murders. 

Finally, it should be pointed out that specks of blood were found in several places associated with Jeremy Bamber.  He also had strange marks on his arm which Julie Mugford recorded as seeing.  He also told Julie that the assassin had lost a glove during the altercation with Nevill.  Was this really something an innocent man would invent?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 05:19:25 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2016, 09:04:49 AM »
1) the killer wearing gloves explains why there was no prints in blood.  The suspect and victim all had reasons for their prints to be at WHF. Thus finding their prints would mean nothing.  Prints in blood in contrast would be evidence of who the killer was. The weapon had blood on it, particularly the stock. The killer's hand was touching the bloody stock.  The killer would have left bloody prints on the weapon and it could have gotten on the killer's fingers to be left elsewhere. Gloves are what would prevent such. This is why gloves were a big deal. If they could prove that Jeremy had gloves that vanished right after the murders...

If the perp wore gloves then void patterns would be a natural outcome.  There was no evidence of void patterns as the low velocity bullets are unlikely to produce high velocity back spatter.  The rifle contained blood in the form of "splashes" and "smears" which is inconsistent with high velocity back spatter.  Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the likelihood of subsequent wounds causing back spatter are reduced due to changes in physiology ie blood pressure. 

2) Cook didn't believe Jeremy was guilty at first.  he agreed with Taff Jones.  Both of them ignored considerable evidence. Saying he had lousy intuition and didn't investigate what he should have hurts Jeremy supporters because it is saying the cop that was supporting you was an inept fool and that is why police didn't realize even sooner that Jeremy did it.

I certainly haven't claimed DI Cook had lousy intution or made any adverse comments about him other than pointing out his claims that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle.  This is wrong.  Google 'fingerprints and firearms' and you can see for yourself that a whole variety of reasons hamper recovery of fingerprints from firearms.  Given that DI Cook was the fingerprint expert this does show a lack of incompetence on his part and/or a lack of training/supervision in the area of fingerprinting.

3) The blood on the socks are static drips of June's blood. The round drops are made by static drips.  Harrison's suggestion that the socks were used to wipe blood is false.  All the socks prove is that June stood over them dripping blood on them.  IF the socks were in that place when June dripped blood on them it means she walked that far around the bed. If they were in a different location when she bled on them and they were moved subsequently then maybe June didn't walk that far around the bed before turning around.  Because of the carpet testing we know she was at the foot of Nevill's side of the bed.  It makes little difference whether she walked another foot on Nevill's side or simply turned around and walked back.  Maybe Jeremy moved the socks to try to get police to June had been on Nevill's side of the bed when shot.  I doubt Jeremy had that much forethought and
find it much more likely they were not moved. There is no way to know for sure whether they were moved or not unless Jeremy decided to confess fully and accurately detail everything.

Agreed.
 
One would expect to find medium velocity back spatter and gunshot residue on the killer's clothing and body.  Sheila had none. Jeremy's clothing was not taken and tested right away and his body was not inspected.  Jeremy had the ability to wash and change before calling police so there is no way to know what he was wearing.

Sheila had no reason to wash and change and no ability to change her clothes without her evidence stained clothing being found at the scene.

Why would one expect to find medium velcoity spatter on the rifle when there was not even enough to permit blood grouping analysis?  If the rifle was used to wield blows to NB and you are expecting medium impact spatter on the rifle and perp why not other objects too such as walls, ceiling, furniture and the cream aga?  Two tiny blood stains on the landing carpet were analysed along with a small section of wallpaper around the hall/kitchen entrance.  If blood was present elsewhere it would have been noted.  I believe there was some blood around the aga, according to CAL's book, but again this was in the form of smears and not representative of high or medium impact spatter from gunshot wounds.

The rifle was fired 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained 2 contact gunshot wounds.  The rifle was found across her body with her hand resting on the rifle so the fact no GSR was found means diddly squat.  Did swabbing take place at SoC?  No it took place at the lab after SC's hands had been placed in bags and she had been transported from WHF in a body bag to the path lab.  Her nightdress was not tested straight away and there's no evidence to suggest it was handled in a manner conducive to preserving GSR.

Furthermore, one would expect the right hand of the killer to have some damage form when the stock of the weapon broke. At minimum the killer would have suffered scratching and splinters if not an actual cut UNLESS the killer was wearing gloves.  Moreover, using the weapon to batter will cause blistering to a hand. There will be friction damage.  So in addition to preventing the killer's prints being left in blood the gloves also would have protected the killer's hand from damage.

Sheila had no damage of any kind to her hands.

Also there would be damage to her long nails if she had been using the weapon to batter Nevill.  No damage of any kind was observed.

Was the broken stock forensically analysed for biological material or fibres from any glove used?  No.  It is not known how the stock broke.  If it was being swung around like a golf club with the stock used as a club head it may have hit a number of items including NB's bones.  Therfore the perp might not have had his/her hand on the stock when it broke.  It's all pure speculation.

When the pathologist was asked about the potential damage to SC's nails from loading and firing the weapon he said he was not qualified to give an opinion.  All this business about fingernails is nothing other than sexist comments from uninformed males.  One only has to look at the nails/polish adorning the hands of the William sisters on the tennis courts to know that nails are hardy.  Not only do Serena and Venus engage in gruelling rallies hitting tennis balls reaching in excess of 100 mph but they undergo extensive training regimes eg lifting weights etc.  This would be like me trying to convince males that if they are hit hard in the nuts it doesn't hurt! 

You are conflating a number of issues.

1) Multiple wounds in close proximity actually increases the likelihood of spatter it doesn't reduce it. 

2) The distance of the shots was close enough that the killer could have been hit with high velocity spatter

3) The location of the wounds will dictate whether spatter would have occurred

4) High velocity impact spatter is very small, it is very easy for police to miss.  Only if they tested all the bedding and objects for the presence of blood and yet found none could you saw whether any spatter hit any objects or not.  They did not do such testing so we have no way to assert anything in this regard.

5) Not only the shooter but others nearby a victims when shot cane be hit with high velocity spatter.

Were there wounds that could have resulted in high velocity impact spatter?  yes

Was the shooter close enough to get hit by high velocity impact spatter?  yes

Did they find any high velocity impact spatter on Sheila?  No so there was no basis to go further and try to assess whether it was the product of her doing the shooting or simply being nearby while a victim was shot.

Did they test Jeremy for high velocity impact spatter?  No.  More than a month later they seized some of his clothing but by that time he could have disposed of whatever he wore or laundered it. They found tiny red marks on a jacket but were unable to determine what substance the marks were.  As such they could not establish he was hit with high velocity impact spatter though he may have been.

In the absence of actually finding impact spatter the only way to establish for sure the killer would have been hit by high velocity impact spatter would be if:

1) it were determined a shot was in a location that definitely would result in high velocity impact back spatter

and

2) the range of the shot for sure was a distance at which the killer would have to have been hit by it

No experts assessed that any of the gunshot wounds for sure would have resulted in impact spatter and at a range where the killer would have been hit for sure.  This is why it was never argued anywhere that Sheila would have had high velocity impact spatter had she been the killer.  It is why I have stated many times that while it is possible the Jeremy got hit with high velocity spatter we don't know for sure.

While it is true that the killer did not necessarily get hit with high velocity spatter you present inaccurate info wile arriving at your conclusion. I don't correct the record in order to show off I correct the record to prevent any of the errors from being applied in other cases or even in this case.

Many factors affect high velocity back spatter from gunshot wounds, especially bullet velocity.  What is closer to a victim when they sustain a gunshot wound the firearm or the perp?  The firearm.  The rifle was foresnically analysed.  It contained blood "smears" and "splashes" and no evidence of high velocity impact spatter which represents a fine mist.   Therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain high impact blood spatter on his/her person.

There's no evidence tiny blood stains found on JB's clothing were in any way connected to the murders.  If one was to foresnically analyse most mens clothing, especially farmers, they are likely to find small blood stains from shaving and minor scrapes during the course of their work.

Nevill was shot in the master bedroom in the lip and the jaw.  The medical experts said these wounds were not serious enough to inhibit his mobility.  This is supported not only by considerable medical evidence but by the fact he did in fact walk from the bedroom to the kitchen after receiving such wounds.  June's first wound was a very serious headshot that would have killed her in short order. Despite such and being shot 5 more times right away, she got out of bed and walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door before collapsing. That was a much more serious wound than the Nevill's lip and jaw wounds.

There's no evidence NB was shot in the bedroom.  I agree NB was still mobile after sustaining the four GSW's upstairs but as per the pathologist he was in considerable pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and had lost the use of his left arm.  The pathologist said NB put up a "spirited defence" this is not the same as entering a "violent struggle".  The pathologist makes it clear that had other injuries not supervened the two facial shots would have eventually killed NB.

Your opinion that Nevill would not have been able to fight back is not a scientific one it is one you have based purely on your bias in this case where you don't want to face the truth. That same bias makes you close your eyes to the considerable evidence Nevill was beaten with the butt of the rifle.  You know that th ekiller woudl have been hit with medium velocity spatter and sheila would have damaged her nails so pretend it never happened so you can still pretend in your mind that Sheila did it.

How many times are you going to hide from reality?  The stock of the weapon had medium velocity impact spatter on it as did some of the metal parts of the rifle.  In the past you denied the stock had blood on it and I proved you were wrong and that it did.  The blood would not have simply hit the weapon but also the person holding it.  Someone touching a bloody stock would leave their prints in such blood and also transfer such blood to other objects they touched. When firing the weapon subsequently the stock would be against the clothing of the shooter and transfer it. The spatter that got on the stock was thus subsequently smeared.

You continuously present the false claim that they analyzed all the blood on all the objects though they didn't.  They didn't take all objects that had blood, didn't record all blood drops that might have been on furnishings and  they destroyed plenty of things that had blood including the quilt.  You simply make up the quilt had no blood though you can't say such unless they had tested it and found no blood. 

You want to pretend Nevill was beaten while he was unconscious instead of as he was trying to defend himself.

You ignore the casings that were in the bedroom and the bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom, ignore that it is impossible to deliver any of Nevill's wounds if he had been on the stairs and simply say he was shot on the stairs anyway. 

You decided that you want to believe Jeremy is innocent and try casting the evidence in a way that comports with your desired beliefs as opposed to simply taking the evidence as it is and following it to its logical conclusion.

Destroying the bedding without testing it prevents us from knowing how much blood was on it, where any blood was and whose blood it was. It is totally inaccurate to say that because it was destroyed without being tested that means there was no blood of Nevill's on it. This is just one example where you turn things on their head.  in fact you turn thing son their head by admitting spatter doesn't always occur and yet saying there would have to be spatter from Nevill on the bed if he were sitting on it when he was shot in the lip and jaw. That's not true  and thus the lack of his blood would fail to prove he wasn't shot while sitting on the bed.  The angle of his wounds as well as the location of the casings establish that is where he was shot. Those are reliable indicators which you close your eyes to because they harm your preferred view of Jeremy being innocent.

Your preferred view guides you as opposed to following the evidence where it leads.  If you just follow the evidence without any agenda it makes life far easier because you don't need to contort anyway.  It makes it far easier when you try to explain and justify your views.

All of the above have already been answered in points above (repeating yourself doesn't make your points more valid) other than your claims that bedding from the main bedroom was destroyed before being forensically analysed.  According to DC Hammersly's trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the bed in the main bedroom and forensically analysed.   The only bedding that was destroyed and not forensically analysed was that from the twins room.  This was tipped out of the window straight onto a trailer and burned in the grounds. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The case in a nutshell.
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2016, 09:32:59 AM »
It is the absence of Nevill's blood which is a huge problem.  His blood was on the weapon and would have hit the killer not just the weapon being wielded by the killer.  The lack of damage of any kind to her hands and nails also reveals she wasn't the one who wielded it. This of course comports with the moderator evidence and Bible evidence (the Bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried). It also comports with the lack of GSR on her clothing and body.

Blood, nails and gsr covered in post above.

Was the blood on the bible forensically analysed?  If it was the results are unknown.  We have no idea whose blood was on the bible.

According to RWB's WS's June read the bible in bed.  June was a deeply religious woman and having sustained gunshot wounds whilst in bed she was still able to move herself from her side of the bed to NB's side.  It is possible that she held the bible and dropped it NB's side of the bed with the blood originating from June's gunshot injuries.  The bible may then have been moved by the perp accessing the twins rooms from the main bedroom via the box room and back again thus opening and closing the door causing the bible to move.  The perp may have knowingly or unknowingly moved the bible or it might even have been moved by Crispy nudging it. 

The idea JB staged the bible and all the rest of it is pure speculation.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?