The Sun claims Madeleine McCann was kidnapped during a botched burglary.

[mercury]

How did she come to draw the short straw? Out of dozens of girls over the months long holiday period? In a preplanned abduction

Bump for SIL, you may have missed my question
Id add

involving OC   who seem to be thought of as dishonest dna impregnated criminals ready to be used whenever asked to take part in stealing chldren

[ShiningInLuz]

Bump for SIL, you may have missed my question
Id add

involving OC   who seem to be thought of as dishonest dna impregnated criminals ready to be used whenever asked to take part in stealing chldren

Missed this earlier on.

Let's play musical chairs.  In an innocent sense, just a lot of clean fun for the kids.  A lot about you can't win every time, so all good so far.

Then the dark side.  Every child, bar one, gets eliminated.  Lots of second best, just a single victor.  Isn't that tough for a littlie?

Sorry, I don't understand the second part of your question.

[mercury]

Missed this earlier on.

Let's play musical chairs.  In an innocent sense, just a lot of clean fun for the kids.  A lot about you can't win every time, so all good so far.

Then the dark side.  Every child, bar one, gets eliminated.  Lots of second best, just a single victor.  Isn't that tough for a littlie?

Sorry, I don't understand the second part of your question.

If I understand your post, which Im not sure I do, you are sayng MM was chosen? Against others?

Cos you said in an earlier post she wasnt special she was unlucky.


My post about  OC staff was about the notion that they were probably involved as you cant trust these bloody foreigners

Was the guy or girl on the receiving end of the bookings details a known criminal? A potential criminal? Someone who could be bribed into givng info? What about the local cleaners? Not your favourites as accomplices in meticulously planned abductions, I could go on

[Alice Purjorick]

Going forwards is easy.

Why should Luz be the easiest place/only place on Earth ... etc.  Easiest/only is not a realistic test, so why explore that route? OK so what do think is the most important criterion
The conditions were set fair for an abduction in Luz.  A long lead time.  A way to set it up.  A set of residences easy to get in to.  A choice of targets.What do believ was the primary event in this chain of events

You still haven't read the relevant statements, have you? I have read them

David Payne says in his rogatory that Portugal was chosen because it was the only MW site open at the time.  That is incorrect.  The MW site in Egypt opened up about 3 weeks before the visit to Luz.Maybe they couldn't afford Egypt

So why did this incident not happen in Egypt?  Obvious answer is the party did not pick Egypt.  But the Egypt resort is a 'standard' hotel, not a set of private residences in a public place with a contract to MW. Are you suggesting that this event could only take place at a MW complex? if so why?

I can't remember if they offered a listening service in Egypt.  However, I think there was a much smaller chance of an incident in a standard hotel of medium security, than there was in Luz, with very limited security.what you seem to be suggesting is sinister bordering on libellous and without foundation
I repeat from earlier. What in your opinion was the primary event

[ShiningInLuz]

If I understand your post, which Im not sure I do, you are sayng MM was chosen? Against others?

Cos you said in an earlier post she wasnt special she was unlucky.

My post about  OC staff was about the notion that they were probably involved as you cant trust these bloody foreigners

Was the guy or girl on the receiving end of the bookings details a known criminal? A potential criminal? Someone who could be bribed into givng info? What about the local cleaners? Not your favourites as accomplices in meticulously planned abductions, I could go on

MBM might or might not have been 'chosen', or unlucky, I do not have the means to tell.

Please look up who took the bookings, how the bookings were dealt with, and how this particular booking was handled.  It is up to you from that point on.

[Brietta]

Going forwards is easy.

Why should Luz be the easiest place/only place on Earth ... etc.  Easiest/only is not a realistic test, so why explore that route? OK so what do think is the most important criterion

The conditions were set fair for an abduction in Luz.  A long lead time.  A way to set it up.  A set of residences easy to get in to.  A choice of targets.  What do believe was the primary event in this chain of events

You still haven't read the relevant statements, have you? I have read them

David Payne says in his rogatory that Portugal was chosen because it was the only MW site open at the time.  That is incorrect.  The MW site in Egypt opened up about 3 weeks before the visit to Luz. Maybe they couldn't afford Egypt

So why did this incident not happen in Egypt?  Obvious answer is the party did not pick Egypt.  But the Egypt resort is a 'standard' hotel, not a set of private residences in a public place with a contract to MW. Are you suggesting that this event could only take place at a MW complex? if so why?

I can't remember if they offered a listening service in Egypt.  However, I think there was a much smaller chance of an incident in a standard hotel of medium security, than there was in Luz, with very limited security. What you seem to be suggesting is sinister bordering on libellous and without foundation

I repeat from earlier. What in your opinion was the primary event

The event could have taken place anywhere in the world where there were ...

(a)  locals prepared to assist
(b)  and to carry out the task
(c)  and to keep their mouths shut after the event

Perhaps Praia da Luz fitted that criteria.

[stephen25000]

The event could have taken place anywhere in the world where there were ...

(a)  locals prepared to assist
(b)  and to carry out the task
(c)  and to keep their mouths shut after the event

Perhaps Praia da Luz fitted that criteria.

Or, of course, it didn't.

[ShiningInLuz]

Going forwards is easy.

Why should Luz be the easiest place/only place on Earth ... etc.  Easiest/only is not a realistic test, so why explore that route? OK so what do think is the most important criterion
The conditions were set fair for an abduction in Luz.  A long lead time.  A way to set it up.  A set of residences easy to get in to.  A choice of targets.What do believ was the primary event in this chain of events

You still haven't read the relevant statements, have you? I have read them

David Payne says in his rogatory that Portugal was chosen because it was the only MW site open at the time.  That is incorrect.  The MW site in Egypt opened up about 3 weeks before the visit to Luz.Maybe they couldn't afford Egypt

So why did this incident not happen in Egypt?  Obvious answer is the party did not pick Egypt.  But the Egypt resort is a 'standard' hotel, not a set of private residences in a public place with a contract to MW. Are you suggesting that this event could only take place at a MW complex? if so why?

I can't remember if they offered a listening service in Egypt.  However, I think there was a much smaller chance of an incident in a standard hotel of medium security, than there was in Luz, with very limited security.what you seem to be suggesting is sinister bordering on libellous and without foundation
I repeat from earlier. What in your opinion was the primary event

Most important criterion?  I don't know.

Primary event?  Again I don't know.  In this particular option, you can take your pick.  MW, date not precise, drops a booking system into the OC that has not been used before.  Or David Payne makes a booking, date a bit wobbly.

You need to read the relevant statements again.

MW complex.  Booking details on MW v booking details on other tour operators.  Compare and contrast.

What I am suggesting is something that I cannot prove.  I am not willing to wander into libel territory.

[G-Unit]

Kindly visit Luz, preferably around the 10th anniversary, and I shall be happy to show you just how easy this is.  The explanation takes between 5 and 10mins tops.

Just for your entrada.  My second visitor enquired in the local ironmonger in the high street how much it cost to get a copy of a crucifix key cut.  €6.50 was the answer.  The OC must have got replacement keys cut somewhere.

So someone looked at the booking forms and gave out information. How did those looking for information know it was available from the MW system? Was there a similar Thomas Cook system which we haven't seen? If not, how did the Ocean Club know when to put cots in TC apartments?

Did the information givers know why the information was wanted? Details of white girls 3 or under is pretty specific, or did they just give out details of all bookings for the week.

Someone allowed keys to be used for unauthorised purposes. Did they lend the keys out so copies could be cut or nip off from work to get them cut themselves? Did they get them done locally? Was the shop used to them coming to have keys cut or was it a one-off? Did the OC have an account for such things or was petty cash used? If local, did the shop people not join the dots?

Were these people aware why they were doing what they did?

People were recruited to be look-outs/abductors.

Were these people aware of all the details of the plan? How do you find someone willing to abduct a child? A risky question to ask imo.

Leaving aside people's consciences this must be the best kept secret in Portugal. Even a £2.5 million reward didn't tempt anyone. No family or friends noticed any signs of stress/guilty consciences.

[ShiningInLuz]

So someone looked at the booking forms and gave out information. How did those looking for information know it was available from the MW system? Was there a similar Thomas Cook system which we haven't seen? If not, how did the Ocean Club know when to put cots in TC apartments?

Did the information givers know why the information was wanted? Details of white girls 3 or under is pretty specific, or did they just give out details of all bookings for the week.

Someone allowed keys to be used for unauthorised purposes. Did they lend the keys out so copies could be cut or nip off from work to get them cut themselves? Did they get them done locally? Was the shop used to them coming to have keys cut or was it a one-off? Did the OC have an account for such things or was petty cash used? If local, did the shop people not join the dots?

Were these people aware why they were doing what they did?

People were recruited to be look-outs/abductors.

Were these people aware of all the details of the plan? How do you find someone willing to abduct a child? A risky question to ask imo.

Leaving aside people's consciences this must be the best kept secret in Portugal. Even a £2.5 million reward didn't tempt anyone. No family or friends noticed any signs of stress/guilty consciences.

There was a TC system.  it did not give the same level of information.

As to what those giving information gave, how would I know?  The simplest solution is money for info, but I have made it clear that I do not claim to know.

I have no idea how the OC got replacements for missing keys.  It looks like it might be Luz.  But Lagos is a few minutes off.

Were the people all aware of what they were doing? Perhaps not.  Possibly people just got sucked in.

Why do you assume people were recruited to be look outs? Not necessary.

2.5 million reward v going to jail for 3 or 5 or 10 years?  Always assuming you actually get the reward.  Crunchy!

[mercury]

MBM might or might not have been 'chosen', or unlucky, I do not have the means to tell.

Please look up who took the bookings, how the bookings were dealt with, and how this particular booking was handled.  It is up to you from that point on.

Erm, ok

I have looked through several of your posts on this subject of targetted or not, special or random,  and am not clearer at all, and as you say you have no idea if x y z theory is correct,  so will leave it at that alifes too short, as you say to speculate forever and a day...we will all be skeletons at this rate

[Brietta]

Erm, ok

I have looked through several of your posts on this subject and am not clearer at all, so will leave it at that.

Every story has a beginning ~ a middle and an ending.  The beginning of this one may have been when the on line bookings were made.  With any luck, SY may be working on the ending.

[mercury]

Every story has a beginning ~ a middle and an ending.  The beginning of this one may have been when the on line bookings were made.  With any luck, SY may be working on the ending.

Brietta!!! LOL this isnt cinderella and NO, SY are not working on the ending, I will eat my hat if they are, not that scenario at least

[sadie]

The cleaner in the apartment on WED. If she cleaned the window (as Amaral claimed) she would have locked it if not secure.

"On the window, there were no signs of a break-in or of gloves. It had been cleaned the day before, May 2nd, by an Ocean Club employee, and the only fingerprints found were Kate's." Chapter 18 Truth of the Lie

As a seasoned traveller, staying at 4*+ hotels generally, I can tell you that in my experience the only time that a cleaner at a hotel / apartment complex in Europe would clean the windows would be at change over day.  Unless the window was in a complete mess

As the window was not used and the shutters were down, it seems unlikely to me that anyone would go near that window to mark it in any way.  It also seems quite likely that the curtains would not have been pulled back at all, cos the window would have been a pretty depressing sight with shutters down.

I am sorry, but I find it difficult to believe that

1)  there was any need to clean that window
2)  the cleaners would have cleaned them except on change over. 

So what I am saying is that imo, one of two things happened here:

1)  Amaral embroidered 'it' to try and make a case against the Mccanns
or
2)  the cleaner "bulled up" the work that she had done

[colombosstogey]

If the child had been safe and secure in her home, and parents present there would have not been a botched burglary....and what do they mean by BOTCHED?

So you go in and decide you are going to steal cameras, laptops perhaps etc et el, and you come out with a dead body of a child................sounds more like a scenario from one of those programmes on the T.V. about the most stupidest criminals.

Jeez give me a break.

I dont think this child was targeted. Perhaps THE children were targeted who knows. 3 vulnerable babies left in a room unatteneded with a sign outside the door which said help yourself?

If someone was watching they would have known the flat was unlocked so why try and get in through a window?

In the front door and out the back, or vice versa, with a child all you have to do is say just taking you to mummy shhhhhh its a game you have to stay quiet, and the deed is done.

Nothing botched about it.  The only scenario for me, is she was taken quickly and freely, or she went out on her own and ended up stuck somewhere, or she was harmed.  But no burglary.....there was no need the doors were open.