Did the Tapas 9 group know in advance of child monitoring arrangements?

[G-Unit]

Every time I read the files I find new information. Someone should have tried to get copies of the e-mails between Dr David Payne and MW to see if he actually did tell them what they planned to do about the childcare.

Apparently the 'listening service' or lack thereof caused consternation during the booking process;


87

[G-Unit]

So Matthew Oldfield told us that Mr Payne informed MW in his e-mails that the reason they wanted to have apartments near to each other was because they were planning to 'listen' for the children in the evenings. He also says that the lack of an official 'listening service; was the reason for Kate's hesitation about the holiday.

David's explanation begins in his rog. interview;

then there had been some questioning about the err you know the fact that it wasn't the kind of (inaudible) same holiday as you know other Mark Warner's err you know and you know could they guarantee that we would all be together in err you know the apartments and I'd had quite a discussion with Mark Warner you know email wise just to make, try and make sure that we were guaranteed err together.'

[So, they discussed the fact that it was a different kind of holiday than other's offered by Mark Warner, so because of that they wanted to be together. I notice he doesn't say what the difference was and why the difference made it important to be together.]

"And the rationale for that was just that we would you know it's just easier if you are all in the same lot, you know you can go next door and you know, just from the children's point of view you know we would all be segregated if you like. Err and then obviously there was the discovery that that wasn't the same, it wasn't you know the same self contain but err yeah there was similar facilities available.

[So it was so you could go next door? I've no idea what he means by 'the children's point of view']

 I know that err again there'd been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go away on that, both err parties weren't a hundred percent you know sure on that type of holiday. I can't say exactly you know what the reasons, I can't remember and from that point of view but in the end you know we just thought oh it's a great holiday there's, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very good time there.

[Gerry and Kate had some concerns about 'the type of holiday', whatever that means. He doesn't remember why (although according to Matthew he remembered exactly why after Madeleine had disappeared). Anyway, in the end they decided to go for it. Why? The fact that everyone knew each other is mentioned; could that be because it was planned that two people at a time would check all the children? That's been mentioned in one statement which suggests the plan was not to check their own children, but to take turns to check all the children at each visit]

1485 "Mm, so just so I've got it straight in my head, did the, the concern from Kate materialise with Fiona since or did it come out in the period that the holiday was booked''
 00:15:19
Reply "I, in my mind there was some concern before the holiday but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is just something which is implanted since we've discussed after err Madeleine's disappearance.'

there was other things that were slightly different you know obviously from the childcare you know point of view. They had the, you know they had the listening service that they have, you know at the other Mark Warner venues that we'd been on, and err you know that was part, you know that was the concept again that we were buying in to the Mark Warner.......
we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn't offer that service.

[So they decided before going that they would replicate the 'listening service'. Note he says 'we actually went into rooms', then changes it to 'the other couples'. The the 'we's return. Thinking it through, they all agreed they would go and operate their own listening service by taking it in turns to go and check. On arrival the other three couples find the Paynes have brought a state of the art baby monitor so have opted out of helping with the listening completely. Nice. Or did he really mean 'we'? Gerry said Mr Payne checked the McCann children on Wedenesday evening]

I suppose for my mindset, the main thing for me was that we were all, everyone was together as a group you know the locality of the, sort of the vicinity of the rooms was, was close enough to make everything as easy as possible, you know from, from all perspectives, whether it be during the day or, or during the evening.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[pathfinder73]

If Kate was nervous about going then no way would she have left her children in an unlocked apartment. Talk about Jekyll and Hyde.

"I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious." FP Kate's best friend

 &%+((£

[G-Unit]

//

If Kate was nervous about going then no way would she have left her children in an unlocked apartment. Talk about Jekyll and Hyde.

"I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious." FP Kate's best friend

 &%+((£

Fiona says they are very very careful parents. Then she says they're very different; Kate's very cautious. Gerry's not then? Only one of them is cautious.

Cautious;

prudent, vigilant, thinking twice, safe, cagey.

Hmm. She acted totally out of character then?

[pathfinder73]

//
Fiona says they are very very careful parents. Then she says they're very different; Kate's very cautious. Gerry's not then? Only one of them is cautious.

Cautious;

prudent, vigilant, thinking twice, safe, cagey.

Hmm. She acted totally out of character then?

According to Kate's best friend YES and she didn't know the apartment was unlocked until she was told by Kate at the table just before Madeleine disappeared.  Another amazing coincidence.

[G-Unit]

Gerry is clear about the need to be near each other;

He adds that the only stipulation by the group was that the apartments had to be close to one another because, contrary to the tour brochure, the resort did not provide a "baby listening" service
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

He says it was because there was no listening service. The two things are clearly related, despite Mr Payne's waffling explanation.

[G-Unit]

Jane Tanner mentions the request to be together, but not the reason. She says it's normal for Brits to leave their children sleeping and go out, but then says she only did it because the others did. She confirms that she took part in listening checks at windows and doors. She says it wasn't the first day [Sunday] When the Tapas booking became a permanent one.

On arrival the rooms were already assigned, [they] having asked, when buying the holiday in England, to stay in apartments close to one another......
The Millenium used to serve dinner on other days (except Saturday) only from 19:30 and, for this reason, they decided to start dining at the Tapas, seeing that, in addition to the above, they would be closer to the apartments. This was discussed at the table in the Millenium on the first night.
Dinner was taken at the Tapas in order to be closer to the apartments where the children were sleeping.
At first dinner was booked each day having later been diarised as a permanent booking for 20h30 until the end of the stay.......
It is normal (culturally, traditionally, education/examples seen) [for] English tourists to leave, for some time, their small children alone in the bedroom/apartment to sleep while the parents are absent, normally guaranteeing that it is done for short periods of time (15/30 minutes). At those times there is a sporadic check, in time, of the places where the children are.....
She never entered apartments of other couples limiting herself only to listen for any noise, putting her ear to the children's bedroom window at the front of the apartment. Only with her own children did she enter the apartment, in all others she limited herself to listen at the doors to see if there was any noise......
Personally, in relation to her daughters, she has not habitually adopted this posture, namely, to leave them alone, having done it only because all the couples of the group did it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

[pegasus]

"contrary to the tour brochure, the resort did not provide a baby listening service"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

In fact the brochure did not state there was a listening service in PDL.
For proof see FP rog. She states very clearly that the brochure definitely did not advertise any listening service in PDL. 

[G-Unit]

In fact the brochure did not state there was a listening service in PDL.
For proof see FP rog. She states very clearly that the brochure definitely did not advertise any listening service in PDL.

They initially assumed there was one and booked on that basis. When the brochure came in the post Fiona read it and saw there was none in PdL. Hence the e-mails about having the apartments together. Her reason is 'so they could have a drink on the balcony together'.

all those MARK WARNER holidays had, were very much the same, erm, different resorts but the same sort of layout, the same hypothesis of, you know, having kid time and adult time'....'They all offered a babysitting service....we assumed that the Portuguese one operated the same way and in the brochure it sold itself the same way as all the others. And it was only after booking that I specifically went through and said 'Well it doesn't actually mention the baby listening service on this one' and I rang up to check, because that was a big part, you know, we, we wanted to be able to have the social aspect of, of a holiday going away in a group .......actually a bit annoyed when they said 'Well actually this doesn't operate a baby listening service', because I don't think we would have booked it had we known that'..... Dave had lots of emails with them saying 'Well if you can't, if you're not doing that I feel your brochure is misleading and we would like all our apartments to be at least together if you can't', you know, 'if you're not offering that can you at least guarantee that'.

Tapas booking. Did they go there Sunday or was it full? No mention of a tall man, Rachael booked for the week;

Erm, so I think it was the second night we tried to book in there but we couldn't because it was fully booked, then we realised, you know, you had, a lady who was taking the bookings said 'Oh, you know, you've really got to book first thing in the morning, it gets really busy'. Erm, so the following morning, I don't, I don't know who it was, I think it was Rachael who sort of got in early and booked us in for that night. I don't know whether it was that day or the following day she'd asked if, if there was any chance of just booking us in for the whole week, because it was so close and so much more convenient that it would have been ideal for us, and I think she was a bit reluctant, but, you know, said she'd do that.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[G-Unit]

The point of this thread was to discover who booked the Tapas restaurant, but in the process another interesting fact emerged; that the group decided to operate their own listening service before they left the UK, as David Payne said in his rog. interview. He also says there was a lot of correspondence asking for them to be housed together, and some asking about dinner arrangements.

Kate says it was the nearness of the restaurant which decided them. If true, they knew where they were going to be housed before they left the UK, because that's when the decision to 'listen' was made.

As the restaurant was so near, we collectively decided to do our own child-checking service.
Kate McCann Madeleine

we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn't offer that service. 

there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[pegasus]

NONE of the T9 had ever used a Mark Warner listening service anywhere.

[ShiningInLuz]

NONE of the T9 had ever used a Mark Warner listening service anywhere.

May I ask if you, or some reliable source, has checked this systematically?

I am asking because I thought some had on a previous MW holiday.  So I'd like to double-check with you rather than slogging through those enormous rogatories, plus Kate's book.

[jassi]

They might not have had children when they had been on a previous MW holiday

[Benice]

May I ask if you, or some reliable source, has checked this systematically?

I am asking because I thought some had on a previous MW holiday.  So I'd like to double-check with you rather than slogging through those enormous rogatories, plus Kate's book.

QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.


 Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.

[ShiningInLuz]

QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.


 Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.

Thank you.