Author Topic: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.  (Read 88687 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #450 on: February 11, 2017, 04:12:25 PM »
If it's relevant why in God's name doesn't someone spell it out for us thickos, or are some people jealously guarding their supposed vital information, for reasons unknown?  And don't fall back on the libel schtick, it's quite possible to get the meaning over without libelling anyone I'm quite sure.

I agree Alf
No relevance

Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #451 on: February 11, 2017, 04:15:26 PM »
There is no libel involved, at least in this part of the tale.

The issue in hand is what a Luz Tour can and cannot point out better than being an armchair detective with the files.

You can make the trip by Google streetview from the comfort of your chair.  Nowt wrong with that.

However, you need to walk the walk the McCanns did to understand why is was highly predictable that the McCanns would choose the easy option.

Role-play it.  You can be Gerry.  If you have a partner, she can be Kate.  Invent substitutes for 4 year old Madeleine, and two and a quarter year old Amelie and Sean.

Now your task is simple.  Get those 3 from 5A to the Millennium.  Then get them back.  No buggy is allowed.  No taxi is mentioned.  So you are restricted to walking.

How long for the 5 of you to cover the 650m?  Did you enjoy your walk?

I was aware that they didn't continue with the millennium either for evening meal or breakfast because it was too far and that's why they block booked the tapas
So my knowledge of the case is good and my opinion that this has no relevance is valid

Offline G-Unit

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #452 on: February 11, 2017, 04:25:31 PM »
I take it since you use the pronoun 'his' the booking clerk you are referring to is Sr Santos.

I can see no reference by either Vitor Santos or Kate in her book that such a request was passed via MW to the OC i.e. close together re child checks.  David Payne may make mention of it in his rogatory, but that is like entering Dante's Inferno.  Please correct me if I am wrong, Misty, because this is another important point.

One observation.  The pavements are unpleasant for walking on for old-timers and very young children.  The surface on that route is calcadas, a cobble which is basically cube-shaped with sharp, uneven faces.

Kate and Gerry were of an age where walking or jogging on calcadas would not have been a problem for them.  A buggy over calcadas is not an issue.  I see lots of them around Luz, and we've used them here for our 2 youngest without any problem.

If the McCanns had taken a double-buggy (not two singles but a double buggy so one parent pushed both the twins) then they might just have used the Millennium more often. 

IMO, probably not, because it would mean taking all 8 children to dinner with them each night.  Block 5 is too far from the Millennium to rely on baby monitors and foot checks.  But perhaps there might have been another night or two when they choose it as a variation.

That would lead to no block-booking of the Tapas.  No alleged note saying the block-booking was because parents were leaving their kids alone while they dined.  No opportunity for any observers to establish a pattern.  Perhaps Madeleine would have made that walk to the Millennium on the evening of 3 May 2007 and we would have nothing to discuss.

650m on calcadas without buggy-capacity is no joke.  The lack of buggy-capacity was unpredictable.  After all, the Wilkins brought a buggy.  But it was still a long trek for Madeleine even if the twins had the benefit of a double-buggy.

Matthew said;

Furthermore, he wishes to make clear that while making the aforementioned reservations the operator had told them that a 'baby listening' service was not in place in the Ocean Club Garden.

That fact had made some of the couples - and himself in particular - reluctant to come to Portugal because all the families have minor children.

he relates that DP had asked the operator that they be provided with lodgings in close proximity to each other because, as a group, they intended to perform that kind of checking collectively over the children of each family.

they had discussed this problem resolving to make the trip since the operator had assured them accommodation sufficiently close together that, collectively, they had managed to assure the checking and supervision of their respective progeny.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm

It's clear that MW booking staff spoke to OC staff about this because it was OC staff who allocated the accommodation. MW staff knew why they wanted to be together and it seems strange if they didn't request together and near an eating place. Placing them together but not near an eatery would have scuppered their childcare plans, wouldn't it?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #453 on: February 11, 2017, 04:29:35 PM »
Matthew said;

Furthermore, he wishes to make clear that while making the aforementioned reservations the operator had told them that a 'baby listening' service was not in place in the Ocean Club Garden.

That fact had made some of the couples - and himself in particular - reluctant to come to Portugal because all the families have minor children.

he relates that .... ...... had asked the operator that they be provided with lodgings in close proximity to each other because, as a group, they intended to perform that kind of checking collectively over the children of each family.

they had discussed this problem resolving to make the trip since the operator had assured them accommodation sufficiently close together that, collectively, they had managed to assure the checking and supervision of their respective progeny.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm

It's clear that MW booking staff spoke to OC staff about this because it was OC staff who allocated the accommodation. MW staff knew why they wanted to be together and it seems strange if they didn't request together and near an eating place. Placing them together but not near an eatery would have scuppered their childcare plans, wouldn't it?

And again what relevance and value does this have
sil thinks she has information that could be of value to the investigation
I haven't seen anything to support that

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #454 on: February 11, 2017, 04:35:54 PM »
It was only predictable if you had prior knowledge that they would be the only members of their group without a buggy. The fact that they didn't take a buggy suggests they saw no need for one. That suggests they had prior knowledge of the resort layout and decided they could manage without one.
If you have any evidence that they knew the distances involved, kindly produce it.  Did they know where they were to lodge in advance, to make such a decision?  Did they know the route from 5A to the Millennium, in order to make such a judgement?  Did they know how traffic works in Luz, to make such a decision?

The talk in advance was that they were going to do their own listening system.  As the Millennium is 650m away, it's getting into a bit like the scurrilous scandal of Chaplin's.  I think the distances are about the same.  A listening system with the children in block 5 and the parents in the Millennium is a definite no go.

And why did they borrow a baby buggy (or two) for the trip to the beach? It's roughly the same distance, depending on whether the buggy started from OC reception or 5A.
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #455 on: February 11, 2017, 04:42:23 PM »
If you have any evidence that they knew the distances involved, kindly produce it.  Did they know where they were to lodge in advance, to make such a decision?  Did they know the route from 5A to the Millennium, in order to make such a judgement?  Did they know how traffic works in Luz, to make such a decision?

The talk in advance was that they were going to do their own listening system.  As the Millennium is 650m away, it's getting into a bit like the scurrilous scandal of Chaplin's.  I think the distances are about the same.  A listening system with the children in block 5 and the parents in the Millennium is a definite no go.

And why did they borrow a baby buggy (or two) for the trip to the beach? It's roughly the same distance, depending on whether the buggy started from OC reception or 5A.

From memory the reason they didn't borrow a buggy for the millennium was because they did not wish to take the children there in the evening because the children were overtired
I seem to remember they took them the first night but due to their tiredness decided to put them to bed early
As many U.K families have done

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #456 on: February 11, 2017, 05:10:17 PM »
From memory the reason they didn't borrow a buggy for the millennium was because they did not wish to take the children there in the evening because the children were overtired
I seem to remember they took them the first night but due to their tiredness decided to put them to bed early
As many U.K families have done
Overtired on which night?  The evening they went to the Millennium was Sat 28 Apr 17, the day they flew out, the first night as you say.

The only mention of tired I know about is Madeleine on 3 May 2007.  Are there more?
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #457 on: February 11, 2017, 08:13:45 PM »
Overtired on which night?  The evening they went to the Millennium was Sat 28 Apr 17, the day they flew out, the first night as you say.

The only mention of tired I know about is Madeleine on 3 May 2007.  Are there more?

On the first night
Reported in the press early on
I'm sure others saw it
So I still don't see why you think it's so important

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #458 on: February 11, 2017, 09:20:58 PM »
On the first night
Reported in the press early on
I'm sure others saw it
So I still don't see why you think it's so important
The McCanns found a 650m walk to the Millennium there, and back, with 3 toddlers, and no buggy, to be tough going.

Vitor dos Santos knew it was predictable.

I really cannot make it any simpler.  With a small glug of knowledge about Luz, it was entirely predictable the McCanns would eat at the Tapas.
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #459 on: February 11, 2017, 11:40:09 PM »
The McCanns found a 650m walk to the Millennium there, and back, with 3 toddlers, and no buggy, to be tough going.

Vitor dos Santos knew it was predictable.

I really cannot make it any simpler.  With a small glug of knowledge about Luz, it was entirely predictable the McCanns would eat at the Tapas.

But most of us have known this since 2007

Offline Mr Gray

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #460 on: February 11, 2017, 11:45:41 PM »
the one question I would like answered is could a 3 yr old open the sliding patio doors
I would think SY and the PJ already know
We dont

Offline misty

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #461 on: February 12, 2017, 01:05:12 AM »
The McCanns found a 650m walk to the Millennium there, and back, with 3 toddlers, and no buggy, to be tough going.

Vitor dos Santos knew it was predictable.

I really cannot make it any simpler.  With a small glug of knowledge about Luz, it was entirely predictable the McCanns would eat at the Tapas.

The major flaw in your logic is that it wasn't the McCanns who made the booking or entered into prolonged correspondence with MW about the location of apartments & the listening service. MW/OC had no way of knowing what each family would opt to do about mealtimes & childcare given the distance from the Millennium.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #462 on: February 12, 2017, 08:40:58 AM »
the one question I would like answered is could a 3 yr old open the sliding patio doors
I would think SY and the PJ already know
We dont

Nearly 4.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #463 on: February 12, 2017, 10:16:21 AM »
The major flaw in your logic is that it wasn't the McCanns who made the booking or entered into prolonged correspondence with MW about the location of apartments & the listening service. MW/OC had no way of knowing what each family would opt to do about mealtimes & childcare given the distance from the Millennium.
It strikes me that the person making the booking or discussing requirements is not relevant - why would it be?  The Balu booking was not made by Raj himself.  Their requirements were noted on the MW booking sheet, just like everyone else.  The Balu party could not predict being as close to Tapas as they turned out to be.

The OC properties were not located with restaurants with convenience in mind.

People close to the Millennium could be predicted to use the Millennium for breakfast and dinner, with some other source being used for lunch.

People close to the Tapas were more likely to use the Tapas for dinner, and Baptista or similar for breakfast and lunch.

The likely use of the Tapas is contained in the statement of the person allocating people to apartments.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: ShiningInLuz tours hits the mainstream Press.
« Reply #464 on: February 12, 2017, 10:58:26 AM »
If you have any evidence that they knew the distances involved, kindly produce it.  Did they know where they were to lodge in advance, to make such a decision?  Did they know the route from 5A to the Millennium, in order to make such a judgement?  Did they know how traffic works in Luz, to make such a decision?

The talk in advance was that they were going to do their own listening system.  As the Millennium is 650m away, it's getting into a bit like the scurrilous scandal of Chaplin's.  I think the distances are about the same.  A listening system with the children in block 5 and the parents in the Millennium is a definite no go.

And why did they borrow a baby buggy (or two) for the trip to the beach? It's roughly the same distance, depending on whether the buggy started from OC reception or 5A.

I have no evidence that they knew how the resort was laid out or that they knew where they would be housed. I do know that they had three children to get to and from the creche four times each day. Why would you decide you don't need a buggy for the twins if you don't know the distances between your accommodation and the various facilities?

They could have been housed near the beach, which would have meant four treks to the creche every day and no chance of operating their listening checks. Given their concern about childcare did they all agree to go in the end without knowing how it would all work?
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