How did Jeremy subdue Sheila?

[tbl]

Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.

He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.

He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)

But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.

So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom?  Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?

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[Admin]

There are many substances available to farmers which would render a person unconscious in seconds yet remain untraceable thereafter.  This substance could also have been used to render the twins helpless.

[david1819]

Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.

He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.

He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)

But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.

So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom?  Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?

The bloodstains on her dress and arms show she was sitting up when the shots were inflicted. She then as a result fell onto her back hence the blood trails change direction. This precludes her being unconscious from drugs while the shots were fired. She was sitting up as a result of conscious movement on her part.

Sheila was right handed and her right hand was found by the trigger. Her index finger on her left hand resembles it to have been in pronated grip around the barrel of the gun.

If we are to assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty. The only plausible scenario IMO is Jeremy giving her the weapon and telling her to shoot herself and she is compliant in doing so.


Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. COA 2002

[Holly Goodhead]

There are many substances available to farmers which would render a person unconscious in seconds yet remain untraceable thereafter.  This substance could also have been used to render the twins helpless.

Such as?

[John]

Such as?

Liquid weedkiller, ammonia or paint thinners for starters.

[adam]

Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.

He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.

He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)

But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.

So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom?  Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?

There is no reason Sheila would wake. Thread already created.

The twins didn't wake, although there is a possibilty they were both shot first, with one bullet each, prior to Bamber entering the main bedroom.

Once Bamber had silently killed June and the twins, and then killed Neville, not silently, but downstairs, he had several options with an asleep Sheila.

[Mendoza]

He could have put some of Julie's Valium into Sheila's food or drink the evening before. It would have rendered her very dozy and compliant. From the photo of her body, she looked calm, almost peaceful.
He was very evasive and cagey about Julie's meds in his police interviews.
Admittedly, it would not have been easy to administer without anyone seeing, but still possible.

[tbl]

Adam, where is the other thread you are referring to?

Why do you think Sheila wouldn't wake up? I don't know if she was a heavy sleeper or not, but I would have thought the noise from the gun, noise from Neville and June, etc. could have done so.

More importantly, if the murders were premeditated, Jeremy would have to assume that there was a risk she might wake up and plan accordingly.

[John]

He could have put some of Julie's Valium into Sheila's food or drink the evening before. It would have rendered her very dozy and compliant. From the photo of her body, she looked calm, almost peaceful.
He was very evasive and cagey about Julie's meds in his police interviews.
Admittedly, it would not have been easy to administer without anyone seeing, but still possible.

The ease by which he was able to murder Sheila and the twins has always bothered me.  David Boutflour in his last TV interview referred to her not having a hair out of place, not exactly the sort of thing which happens when someone goes berserk and has an actual fight with a much taller, stronger man in the kitchen.  Even both twins were found in a peaceful pose, one sucking this thumb.  Surely one of them would have roused after hearing shots?

The problem about ingesting sedatives is that they show up in blood and urine samples.  An appropriately soaked rag over the mouth however would be sufficient to knock anyone out just long enough to carry out the murders.

The reality wrt Sheila however is that once she shot herself initially, her fingers, hands and throat/face would have been smeared in blood while she reacted to the shock and searing burn/pain caused by that first bullet.  Additionally, there would have been lots more blood on the rifle as she struggled to fire it again. None of that was evident so Sheila had to be unconscious from the outset.

[Mendoza]

There is absolutely no way she was in a fight with Nevill,  nor did she ever go on a mad rampage. Apart from the blood, her body was immaculate and her face serene.

What substance could JB have put on a rag that would render the victims comatose, without showing up in tests? Perhaps there are compounds that are easily available to the farming community, I only know of chloroform, but would have no idea how to obtain it!

[John]

There is absolutely no way she was in a fight with Nevill,  nor did she ever go on a mad rampage. Apart from the blood, her body was immaculate and her face serene.

What substance could JB have put on a rag that would render the victims comatose, without showing up in tests? Perhaps there are compounds that are easily available to the farming community, I only know of chloroform, but would have no idea how to obtain it!

There are numerous substances ranging from liquid pesticides to paint thinners and ammonia which were readily available back in 1985.  In fact, many substances which are restricted today were freely available back then.

[Myster]

There are numerous substances ranging from liquid pesticides to paint thinners and ammonia which were readily available back in 1985.  In fact, many substances which are restricted today were freely available back then.

Wouldn't there be an obvious lingering smell on her face with all those, which either an observant cop or the pathologist might notice?

[John]

Wouldn't there be an obvious lingering smell on her face with all those, which either an observant cop or the pathologist might notice?

The very small amount needed would evaporate quickly leaving no trace.

[Mendoza]

You can get odourless paint thinners today, but don't know if they were available back then.

I did wonder about the lingering smell of chemicals, however not sure about the keystone cops being observant in noticing it !

Maybe thats partly why he didn't encourage the cops to go straight in.

[Mendoza]

The very small amount needed would evaporate quickly leaving no trace.

Would JB have known that though. He doesn't strike me as being the brightest tool in the box.