Can a Case Be Made for a 8.45-9pm Wilkins/Gerry Chat?

[faithlilly]

I find that very difficult to accept, the time period is far too wide given what occurred that night.

You may find it difficult John but that's what he said.

[faithlilly]

OK, he didn't say it, but his wife did. 

"Our baby would not sleep and at about 8.30pm, Jes took him out for a walk in the buggy to settle him. Gerry was on his way back from checking on his children and the two men stopped to have a chat. They talked about daughters, fathers, families. Gerry was relaxed and friendly. They discussed the babysitting dilemmas at the resort and Gerry said that he and Kate would have stayed in too, if they had not been on holiday in a group. Jes returned to our apartment just before 9.30pm".

Was this in her statement ?

[faithlilly]

Jes was with his baby in a pram.  We know this for a fact.  So that's what he was doing, only he wasn't doing it for 30 minutes after his chat with Gerry because he went back to the apartment afterwards.  So the 30 minutes afer the chat doesn't exist.  This thread is just mischief making, for want of anything else to discuss.

But O'Donnell only claimed that Wilkins returned at 9.30 in a fluff piece she wrote for the Times ( I think ) months later. In the statements of both her and her partner they say Wilkins returned after his talk with Gerry. They are no more specufic than that.

[Alfie]

But O'Donnell only claimed that Wilkins returned at 9.30 in a fluff piece she wrote for the Times ( I think ) months later. In the statements of both her and her partner they say Wilkins returned after his talk with Gerry. They are no more specufic than that.

What is a "fluff" piece?  I take it from the use of this dismissive word that we are not to take Bridget O'Donnell's article in the Times seriously and that she merely wrote that her husband came back at 9.30pm anticipating that in years to come it would prove a contentious talking point of a forum somewhere, not that it was the truth or anything as prosaic as that!

[faithlilly]

What is a "fluff" piece?  I take it from the use of this dismissive word that we are not to take Bridget O'Donnell's article in the Times seriously and that she merely wrote that her husband came back at 9.30pm anticipating that in years to come it would prove a contentious talking point of a forum somewhere, not that it was the truth or anything as prosaic as that!

Look at her and Wilkin's official statements Alfie. Do either of them say Wilkins returned at 9.30pm?

[Robittybob1]

What is a "fluff" piece?  I take it from the use of this dismissive word that we are not to take Bridget O'Donnell's article in the Times seriously and that she merely wrote that her husband came back at 9.30pm anticipating that in years to come it would prove a contentious talking point of a forum somewhere, not that it was the truth or anything as prosaic as that!

What would be said if Kate and Gerry started writing fluff pieces that contradicted their statements.  I'm sure that wouldn't just be brushed off a creative writing.
So neither should Bridget as her name is on the original statement, whatever she says after that is going to be assessed based on what was said before.

[Alfie]

Look at her and Wilkin's official statements Alfie. Do either of them say Wilkins returned at 9.30pm?

What time do they say he returned then?

But let's go along with your theory for a bit shall we?  The McCanns leave the apartment at 8.30, and yet at 8.45 pm Gerry has already gone back to the apartment, oblivious (according to your theory) that anything is amiss in the apartment, chatting merrily to Jes Wilkins.  So, what's he doing in that vicinity 15 minutes after leaving the apartment, in your view?

[Alice Purjorick]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Q. Relative to the time I met Gerry McCann on the Thursday night of May 3, 2007;
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
We returned to our apartment. We decided to spend the evening in, watching television. Our son was awake and unable to sleep. I decided to take him for a walk in his pram. I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.

I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in ...........He said that as he was staying two weeks XXXXX he was staying one night' (unreadable)
I don't remember anyone else walking around with a child. The conversation lasted for about three (3) to five (5) minutes.

He was acting completely normal from what I know of him so far. I then walked back to the apartment. I had dinner, watched a DVD and went to bed at about 11 pm.

[Robittybob1]

Was this in her statement ?

In the statement on the 7th which is taken under Jez' name only.
He states:
"The conversation with Gerry lasted for about three minutes during which Gerry was chatty and in his normal self. Jeremy then made his way back to his apartment.

They went to bed about 2300hrs but were waken about 0100hrs by a knock at the door. On answering the door they spoke with the resort manager and a person they knew was a member of the group but they only knew him as Matthew. It was then they found out that Madeleine was missing."

There is an apparent lack of detail in there and when you consider there had been a specific request to intercept Jez you would have thought a bit more attention to detail was in order.

There is the Fax sent to the London Police by Goncalo Amaral on the 7th.  Were the London Police acting on this request or had Jez came in voluntarily?

"By FAX
Department of Criminal Investigation at PORTIMAO.

CONFIDENTIAL/URGENT.

To : Detective Chief Superintendent Robert Hall
Fax: 00441XXXXXXXXX
From: Goncalo Amaral - C.I.C. no D.I.C. de PortimAo
C/C : Fax:
Data: 07-05-2007 . No pages : 03
Ref : N / ref : Inq. 201107.0 GALGS
Subject : Request for Collaboration

In furtherance of your operation TASK and International Police Cooperation please see the following points:

1. Could you consider making enquiries to question JEREMY MICHAEL WILKINS (UK Passport No 205XXXXXX, DOB 24.02.1974) ?
Wilkins was staying at the Ocean Club resort at the time of Madeleine's disappearance and may have vital information. Wilkins lives at the following address, 23 MXXXXX RXXX, London, NWlX XXX. Wilkins is contactable on the following telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00442XXXXXXXXX.

We would like the following points covered if possible;

- Did Wilkins travel with anyone else?
- If he has children and what age are they?
- If he knows the group of people which MADELEINE MCCANN was part of and the apartment block where the guests were staying ?
- If he knows MADELEINE'S parents and in particular her father GERALD MCCANN ?
- When did he met GERALD MCCANN and in what circumstances ?
- Did he play tennis with GERALD McCANN ?
- Did he meet with him apart from playing tennis ?
- Did he come to know the routine of GERALD McCANN and his family (his wife and children ?
- If he did, when GERALD was having dinner with his wife and friends where were the children and how were they looked after ?
When was the last time he was with GERALD McCANN, when not playing tennis, before the disappearance of MADELEINE ?
- On the day of the disappearance, was JEREMY out with his children in the evening ?
- Did he meet GERALD and at what time ?
- Where was GERALD coming from at this time ?
- Exactly where was this meeting with GERALD ? (please obtain confirmation of the exact location on the attached map)
- What was the distance of this meeting from GERALD'S apartment ?
- Can Jeremy provide a sketch map of the location ?
- What did they talk about at this time and for how long ?
- When he was talking with GERALD, did any of Gerald's group pass by ?
- If so, who ?
- When he was talking with GERALD did he see whether anyone passed by carrying a child in the road near the apartment block ?

2. In the spirit of Police to Police Cooperation we request the presence of a British Criminal Analyst who may be able to assist the enquiry.
Also the collaboration of the UK's "Child Exploitation Online Protection" may be useful if they wish to send one of their officers to provide assistance to the investigation,

3. We would like further information (by telephonic analysis if thought necessary) relevant to the investigation about the following subjects :
- GERALD McCANN and KATE HEALY contactable on telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX,00441XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- MATTHEW DAVID OLDFIELD and RACHAEL MAMPILLY, contactable on telephone numbers 00442XXXXXXXXX, 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- RUSSEL JAMES O'BRIEN and JANE MICHELLE TANNER, contactable on telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- DAVID ANTHONY PAYNE, contactable on telephone number 00441XXXXXXXXX, FIONA ELAINE PAYNE, contactable on telephone number 00441XXXXXXXXX and DIANNE WEBSTER, contactable on telephone number
00441XXXXXXXXX.

Namely if there is any indication of motive for anyone in the UK to kidnap the daughter of GERALD McCann ?

Regards

Coordinator of Criminal Investigation :

Goncalo Amaral."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm

[Robittybob1]

I can not see any indication the fax was in the hands of the Police at the time doing the interview.

The question regarding motive is missed altogether "Namely if there is any indication of motive for anyone in the UK to kidnap the daughter of GERALD McCann ?" 

[G-Unit]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Q. Relative to the time I met Gerry McCann on the Thursday night of May 3, 2007;
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
We returned to our apartment. We decided to spend the evening in, watching television. Our son was awake and unable to sleep. I decided to take him for a walk in his pram. I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.

I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in ...........He said that as he was staying two weeks XXXXX he was staying one night' (unreadable)
I don't remember anyone else walking around with a child. The conversation lasted for about three (3) to five (5) minutes.

He was acting completely normal from what I know of him so far. I then walked back to the apartment. I had dinner, watched a DVD and went to bed at about 11 pm.

What does stand out is that Wilkins has absolutely no intention of giving a more exact time.

[Alfie]

What does stand out is that Wilkins has absolutely no intention of giving a more exact time.

You make it sound like he deliberately set out to be vague.

[Robittybob1]

You make it sound like he deliberately set out to be vague.

How can we ever determine if something is deliberate or not?  There is a saying "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. It is a duck." 
Wikipedia has it down as the "The Duck Test".
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics. It is sometimes used to counter abstruse, or even valid, arguments that something is not what it appears to be."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

[Alfie]

How can we ever determine if something is deliberate or not?  There is a saying "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. It is a duck." 
Wikipedia has it down as the "The Duck Test".
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics. It is sometimes used to counter abstruse, or even valid, arguments that something is not what it appears to be."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

Robbity, you're quackers!

[Robittybob1]

Robbity, you're quackers!

I might sound quacked but I don't look or swim or walk like a duck.