What a waste of time and money

[puglove]

Scipio just lost interest in this case and has moved on. He hasn't changed his opinion on Bamber - FAR from it.

Yep. Scipio was brilliant, put everything into perspective, then moved on because he had better things to do than try to convert idiots. I know the feeling.

 

[puglove]

Yep. Scipio was brilliant, put everything into perspective, then moved on because he had better things to do than try to convert idiots. I know the feeling.

 

Samson.

Instead of spaffing out your solipsistic, ignorant shite, try reading up. You reckon that you know the Bain case inside and out. Do you, though?

[Samson]

Samson.

Instead of spaffing out your solipsistic, ignorant shite, try reading up. You reckon that you know the Bain case inside and out. Do you, though?

The Bamber and Bain cases collide with the pattern of lying by relatives, lying by police, and trial judges not admitting important evidence, then in a substantial manner, instructing the juries to return guilty verdicts.
Any idea that this is a preposterous notion can be renounced by studying the cases of The West Memphis 3, the Norfolk 4, the Arthur Thomas and Teina Pora cases in New Zealand, the Amanda Knox case in Italy, the Russ Faria case, and a bunch of others where the parties have been EXONERATED. All these are easily researched.

I hope you develop your argument that Jeremy Bamber is guilty there. It is a serious thread seeking to explain bullet trajectories, wildly different coloration of June and Sheila's bodies and progression of livor mortis, data points that do not depend on the lying liar Julie Mugford, and gullible folks that see implausible scratches under a mantlepiece that were seen in original SOC photos to not exist.

I am sure in real life you are a compassionate soul, let us enjoy some proper analysis from you.
Myster has tried and failed.

[John]

Looks like a challenge to me Myster?

[puglove]

Looks like a challenge to me Myster?

If I were Myster, I don't think I'd bother.

Samson, I appreciate your reply to me, it was kinder than I deserve, but there are so many aspects of your theory that are just.....crap. Sorry.

[Samson]

Looks like a challenge to me Myster?

John, the challenge is for everyone to produce a narrative that embraces all the evidence.
I have never seen one that goes close with Bamber doing the crime, and indeed never expect to.

The worst attempt was the one Carol Ann Lee trotted out in her book, which purports to be the official police one.
If that doesn't work, what are we discussing?
I have never seen one developed that explains the found scene, and the bullet trajectories through Nevill and Sheila and includes JEREMY BAMBER.
Is there one on this forum you can point me to?

I see you edited out a reference, fair enough, but there is no mystery about Puglove, she came out swinging before I even posted, fair enough too, but there are 10,000 posts on one thread at IA, and she claimed to have contributed early. IA has become a guilter free zone because they can't live in the crime scene as discovered by Taff Jones and his merry men.

[Samson]

If I were Myster, I don't think I'd bother.

Samson, I appreciate your reply to me, it was kinder than I deserve, but there are so many aspects of your theory that are just.....crap. Sorry.

Well, I have given the case a lot of thought, with a fresh mind. I have learned little can be learned from the police prosecutor jury judge verdict appeal sequence. In so many cases the die is cast with the laying of charges, we must look right outside all that, and go straight to the found crime scene, which in this case looks like murder suicide.
If that poses indisputable data points that require a more complex solution, so be it, but this crime scene is not such an animal.
As an exercise, suggest to me the most difficult datapoint for Jeremy to explain away, and I will do it for him right here.

[Caroline]

Yep. Scipio was brilliant, put everything into perspective, then moved on because he had better things to do than try to convert idiots. I know the feeling.

 

Ha, ha! Don't we all.

[John]

John, the challenge is for everyone to produce a narrative that embraces all the evidence.
I have never seen one that goes close with Bamber doing the crime, and indeed never expect to.

The worst attempt was the one Carol Ann Lee trotted out in her book, which purports to be the official police one.
If that doesn't work, what are we discussing?
I have never seen one developed that explains the found scene, and the bullet trajectories through Nevill and Sheila and includes JEREMY BAMBER.
Is there one on this forum you can point me to?

I see you edited out a reference, fair enough, but there is no mystery about Puglove, she came out swinging before I even posted, fair enough too, but there are 10,000 posts on one thread at IA, and she claimed to have contributed early. IA has become a guilter free zone because they can't live in the crime scene as discovered by Taff Jones and his merry men.

The White House Farm murders case is really very simple.  By virtue of Jeremy Bamber's own evidence the only two people with inside access to the farmhouse were Jeremy and Sheila.  The forensic evidence clearly points to five murders which rules Sheila out.  The further  evidence in the form of statements by several witnesses clearly implicates Jeremy Bamber.  That is the crux of it, if anyone was ever guilty of mass murder it is Jeremy Bamber.

[adam]

I re posted this scenario yesterday. A 'narrative' of how Bamber committed the massacre that matches the crime scene.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - Bike available. Easy journey. Unseen passing no dwellings. Quick journey. Bike taken to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre.


Get into WHF

Evidence - Bathroom window already loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window. Bamber said found hacksaw by the window which was used on the window,  was his hacksaw. 


Pick up rifle:

Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Enter main bedroom:

Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville:

Evidence - 10 shots were fired in the main bedroom suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:

Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen after a kitchen fight.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Scratch marks on aga.


Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:

Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs:

Evidence - Further shots fired. All other shots upstairs.


Wake and persuade or force Sheila into the main bedroom. Or carry a sleeping Sheila.  Or shoot an already awake Sheila who had moved into the main bedroom.

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom.


Shoot June once more:

Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final head shot required.


Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:

Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.

Twins likely to stay asleep behind shut door in another room during massacre.Upstairs massacre had been quiet, with silencer on rifle. June and Sheila putting up minimal resistance. Nevill's resistance was downstairs.


Stage the scene:

Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville's body moved to give easy access to naked back. Nevill's back burnt to check for signs of life.


Exit out of kitchen window:

Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside.

Housekeeper said items around the window had been moved.

Crime scene photo's show only vertical lock in shut position. 


Cycle home:

Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage.
 

[adam]

David made me reconcider this scenario & I agree Bamber may have fired one bullet each into the twins first, before entering the main bedroom. Returning later to the twins to fire another 6 bullets.

I can't see the point in Bamber shooting 8 bullets into the twins first, then going downstairs to reload.

[John]

I re posted this scenario yesterday. A 'narrative' of how Bamber committed the massacre that matches the crime scene.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - Bike available. Easy journey. Unseen passing no dwellings. Quick journey. Bike taken to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre.


Get into WHF

Evidence - Bathroom window already loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window. Bamber said found hacksaw by the window which was used on the window,  was his hacksaw. 


Pick up rifle:

Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Enter main bedroom:

Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville:

Evidence - 10 shots were fired in the main bedroom suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:

Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen after a kitchen fight.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Scratch marks on aga.


Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:

Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs:

Evidence - Further shots fired. All other shots upstairs.


Wake and persuade or force Sheila into the main bedroom. Or carry a sleeping Sheila.  Or shoot an already awake Sheila who had moved into the main bedroom.

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom.


Shoot June once more:

Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final head shot required.


Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:

Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.

Twins likely to stay asleep behind shut door in another room during massacre.Upstairs massacre had been quiet, with silencer on rifle. June and Sheila putting up minimal resistance. Nevill's resistance was downstairs.


Stage the scene:

Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville's body moved to give easy access to naked back. Nevill's back burnt to check for signs of life.


Exit out of kitchen window:

Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside.

Housekeeper said items around the window had been moved.

Crime scene photo's show only vertical lock in shut position. 


Cycle home:

Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage.

A good post Adam which gives new readers unfamiliar with the case a general insight into what actually occurred.  I think the problem for most sceptics is that they just don't understand what occurs when someone shoots themself in the neck with a .22 rifle.   The forensics clearly indicate that Sheila did not shoot herself twice in the throat as they wrongly claim which leaves only one person who was in a position to do so and that was Jeremy Bamber.

[John]

David made me reconcider this scenario & I agree Bamber may have fired one bullet each into the twins first, before entering the main bedroom. Returning later to the twins to fire another 6 bullets.

I can't see the point in Bamber shooting 8 bullets into the twins first, then going downstairs to reload.

I have thought long and hard about this too and the timing of the shootings. One other issue is where was Sheila when all this was going on, was she locked in her room or was she temporarily subdued in some way?

The forensic analysis of her hands and nails shows that she was not involved in a fight for her life never mind any fictional altercation with her father in the kitchen so I tend to go with the latter.  David Boutflour commented that Sheila was found with hardly a hair out of place and he was right.  In addition, there were no contortions visible on her face which there should have been for someone who was conscious and shot in the neck with a rifle.  My own view is that Sheila was unconscious before being murdered.

[adam]

I have thought long and hard about this too and the timing of the shootings. One other issue is where was Sheila when all this was going on, was she locked in her room or was she temporarily subdued in some way?

The forensic analysis of her hands and nails shows that she was not involved in a fight for her life never mind any fictional altercation with her father in the kitchen so I tend to go with the latter.  David Boutflour commented that Sheila was found with hardly a hair out of place and he was right.  In addition, there were no contortions visible on her face which there should have been for someone who was conscious and shot in the neck with a rifle.  My own view is that Sheila was unconscious before being murdered.

I have often said Sheila may slept through it all. The twins didn't wake,  although as mentioned there was a slim chance they were shot first.

There was minimal upstairs noise. Bamber crept upstairs  June was shot several times, once in the throat and instantly negated/killed. Nevill ran straight downstairs while being shot. The rifle had a silencer on.

The kitchen fight was downstairs and was violent but quick.  Sheila upstairs asleep behind a closed door and under sedation is unlikely to be woken,  at a time when she would be in a deep sleep.

[adam]

A good post Adam which gives new readers unfamiliar with the case a general insight into what actually occurred.  I think the problem for most sceptics is that they just don't understand what occurs when someone shoots themself in the neck with a .22 rifle.   The forensics clearly indicate that Sheila did not shoot herself twice in the throat as they wrongly claim which leaves only one person who was in a position to do so and that was Jeremy Bamber.

Yes, I let the evidence lead me into how Bamber committed the massacre. Everything Bamber did is backed up by the crime scene evidence.

All Sheila scenarios have a lot of different and personalised very unlikely visions of different incidents happening. These have no evidence to back it up.

Such as Nevill & Sheila had a 3am conversation about fostering , and Nevill let Sheila load the rifle and go upstairs with it, while he rang Bamber. There is no evidence this happened. However these visions need to be included to complete a breakdown of how Sheila did it.