Author Topic: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.  (Read 77731 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2017, 06:55:13 AM »
But did they?  Was it confirmed that Madeleine was the biological daughter of Kate and Gerry McCann?

"- We carried out a profile comparison obtained from the autosomal STRs of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann and of the profile sent us.

- The probability of the McCann couple being the biological parents of the female individual in that test is 99,9828 %."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2017, 07:29:24 AM »
A very specific study on the topic has been recorded on Gerry McCann's blogs http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/89sep14/MyMcCann_15_09_2014.htm#9
Look down to the heading "THE HIRE CAR SAMPLING."
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2017, 08:37:33 AM »
The electropherograms from the DNA analysis for the samples taken from the hire car don't seem to have been released so they cannot be analysed independently.

"Electropherograms are also output from capillary electrophoresis instruments. Electropherograms may be used to determine DNA sequence genotypes, or genotypes that are based on the length of specific DNA fragments. These genotypes can be used for: genealogical DNA testing. paternity testing."

I had been studying up on these electropherograms for the last two days and I was keen to see if I could see evidence of up to 5 individuals in the mixed sample. 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 09:28:44 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2017, 04:41:06 PM »
Professor Dan Kane says it is impossible to see evidence of more than 3 persons in the mix.  To have proof of 5 there would have to be 9 peaks showing at any one locus.  That would be a first!
"Statistical weights of mixed DNA profiles"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRBTopFA1A&index=5&list=UUjpWy3YdG24iySWTBS4jU2Q
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 08:37:00 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline jassi

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2017, 04:43:46 PM »
All very interesting and educational. Just goes to show that DNA forensics doesn't always add to a case. ?{)(**
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Mr Gray

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2017, 04:50:05 PM »
Professor Dan Kane says it is impossible to see evidence of more than 3 persons in the mix.  To have proof of 5 there would have to be 9 peaks showing at any one locus.  That would be a first!
"Statistical weights of mixed DNA profiles"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRBTopFA1A&index=5&list=UUjpWy3YdG24iySWTBS4jU2Q

Perhaps that's why the FSS said three and POSSIBLY five

Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2017, 04:55:20 PM »
All very interesting and educational. Just goes to show that DNA forensics doesn't always add to a case. ?{)(**
I've watched the series of lectures and it was an eye opener, for he explains how it possible to deceive the jury using the DNA evidence.  It is all a matter of priming the lab technicians with enough "evidence" about the case so the analyst puts the right amount of emphasis on the right debatable aspects.  Who can argue with an expert.
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Offline jassi

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2017, 04:57:45 PM »
I've watched the series of lectures and it was an eye opener, for he explains how it possible to deceive the jury using the DNA evidence.  It is all a matter of priming the lab technicians with enough "evidence" about the case so the analyst puts the right amount of emphasis on the right debatable aspects. Who can argue with an expert.


Another expert
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2017, 05:19:30 PM »

Another expert
It is a lot harder than you realise.  The results can be read in different ways but the one that shows the accused as guilty has a strong argument.  He (Dan Krane) didn't go into how that could be defended.
E.g. Saying the lab could have made mistakes doesn't carry as much kudos.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 05:24:17 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2017, 01:28:45 AM »
from the 19 alleles listed on the document below in the table "Profile":
at the 10 loci listed it should be possible to reinstate the loci headings on this page where the electropherograms are displayed in spite of the fact that the loci names have been crossed out in the graphs displayed on the page below.


Until we can get the evidence sample results we are stuck being unable to assess whether the Forensic Science Service Ltd was correct in saying the sample was not proof that Madeleine's cadaver was in the car  or not.
If the sample was mixed sample just sourced from Gerry and Kate there would be a total of 37 different alleles to show up, and I think their profiles were already known, so if there were additional alleles appearing that suggests a third person in the mix.

"A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

4 of the 19 alleles belonging to Madeleine were missing so the mixed sample is not likely to be both the mother and the father for then all the missing alleles would have been replaced.  It could be the mother plus someone else (so the sex allele stays the same).    I think the result could also occur if one of Kate's eggs were fertilized with Gerry's sperm producing a closely related individual of the female sex. 

The lecture by Dan Krane covered related individuals (quite difficult to understand it all though).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRBTopFA1A&list=UUjpWy3YdG24iySWTBS4jU2Q&index=5 for mixed samples.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 07:19:30 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2017, 03:09:24 AM »
In fact I read a sentence in the last few days in a document where it said something to the effect that as far as the McCanns know there are no other biological children (other than their 3 kids Madeleine, Sean and Amelie.  It was definitely worded "as far as it is known" or words meaning the same thing.  Has anyone else seen this report?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2017, 08:05:57 AM »
"Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors;..."  In professor Dan Krane's opinion if the allele is absent from the evidence sample  the suspect should be excluded.  On that basis since 19 alleles of Madeleine were known and only 15 of these were present in the evidence sample (from the back of the Renault) he would take that to mean it wasn't Madeleine present in the boot of that car. 
I wonder if he has ever considered the McCann case himself.  I may even pluck up courage and right to him via his website www.bioforensics.com
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2017, 08:19:18 AM »
Email to Dan Krane
Hi Professor Dan Krane,

I have been watching and learning about DNA profiles etc from you Youtube lecture series and have found them very educational.  I will certainly be recommending them in the discussions we are having on the forum.

On page 7 of the thread http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7862.90 I am using my knowledge based on what you have said and concluded that Madeleine was not the source of the evidence sample.
""Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors;..."  In professor Dan Krane's opinion if the allele is absent from the evidence sample  the suspect should be excluded.  On that basis since 19 alleles of Madeleine were known and only 15 of these were present in the evidence sample (from the back of the Renault) he would take that to mean it wasn't Madeleine present in the boot of that car."

In the case of a suspect you might adopt that criteria but would you also use it in a missing person case?
Have you ever looked at the Madeleine McCann case?

I would love to hear back what your opinion was?  Thanks.
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Offline Carana

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2017, 12:19:28 PM »
from the 19 alleles listed on the document below in the table "Profile":
at the 10 loci listed it should be possible to reinstate the loci headings on this page where the electropherograms are displayed in spite of the fact that the loci names have been crossed out in the graphs displayed on the page below.


Until we can get the evidence sample results we are stuck being unable to assess whether the Forensic Science Service Ltd was correct in saying the sample was not proof that Madeleine's cadaver was in the car  or not.
If the sample was mixed sample just sourced from Gerry and Kate there would be a total of 37 different alleles to show up, and I think their profiles were already known, so if there were additional alleles appearing that suggests a third person in the mix.

"A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

4 of the 19 alleles belonging to Madeleine were missing so the mixed sample is not likely to be both the mother and the father for then all the missing alleles would have been replaced.  It could be the mother plus someone else (so the sex allele stays the same).    I think the result could also occur if one of Kate's eggs were fertilized with Gerry's sperm producing a closely related individual of the female sex. 

The lecture by Dan Krane covered related individuals (quite difficult to understand it all though).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRBTopFA1A&list=UUjpWy3YdG24iySWTBS4jU2Q&index=5 for mixed samples.

Thanks for the link to Dan Krane's video. I'm only up to around 22 mins, but will watch the rest later. So far, I find it to be well explained.

The key point of interest to me is how far the probability changes when just 1 result out of 26 potentially different alleles (the FBI database examines 13 markers) is discounted as irrelevant background noise when, in fact, it may not be. I wonder how many people are on Death Row as a result? I also wonder how many in the UK may be serving lengthy prison sentences when they only examine 10...

The UK forensic system examines (or did) 10 markers (i.e. it searches for 2 alleles at each of the 10 loci). There was talk of moving to a higher number and I haven't followed whether it eventually did or not, nor why exactly they may not have done. The more, the better, I would have thought.

The INML in Portugal did their very best in M's case in the samples submitted to them (mainly related to the flat shortly after her disappearance), using two different kits to maximise the number of loci to examine. (The two kits largely overlap in terms of loci, but there were a few extra ones.)

That said, from what I've listened to so far, the context seems to be within the context of a defendant being convicted who may not have been the real perpetrator of a crime.

For the moment, the 15/37 boot issue seems quite different to me: DESPITE the fact that the UK system only examines 10 loci, there was evidence of "at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors":


"A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm





Offline Carana

Re: MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2017, 12:35:50 PM »
To put it another way: Kane was explaining the probability of error in eliminating what may or may not be an irrelevant peak of background noise in one of the 13 loci (therefore only relying on the results of 12).

As I haven't listened to the rest yet, I don't know if Kane went on to present the results if only 11 or 10 had been examined.

Lowe only had 10 loci (markers) to examine, but even so, there were was still evidence of at least 3 contributors.