MADELEINE'S DNA - definitive study.

[Carana]

If there was a male plus Madeleine the sex allele would be x and y  so in a mix that could be both male and female in the mix.
If there were only females (like a spillage occurred on a shopping trip) the sex allele could just stay x.  We are looking for ways to keep the total down to 37 which I think is hard in a 3 person mix unless there is close relationship and genetically close to Madeleine too to include the 15 out of her 19 alleles.
In some cases a 3 person mix could end up with 60 alleles in total, 20 from each person.

Hmmm.
The amelo sex allele is considered separately from the other alleles, and isn't one of the ones counted as within the 10, 13 or 15 markers within which there are variations beyond establishing whether the sample belongs to a male/ female, as fare as I'm aware.

[Carana]

If there was a male plus Madeleine the sex allele would be x and y  so in a mix that could be both male and female in the mix.
If there were only females (like a spillage occurred on a shopping trip) the sex allele could just stay x.  We are looking for ways to keep the total down to 37 which I think is hard in a 3 person mix unless there is close relationship and genetically close to Madeleine too to include the 15 out of her 19 alleles.
In some cases a 3 person mix could end up with 60 alleles in total, 20 from each person.

Forget the sex marker... that's in addition: it's not one of the 10 markers.  It determines the sex of the potential suspect / victim. Male or female.

[Carana]

From the position the samples were collected it would be very hard to explain a perfect unmixed evidence sample that matched Madeleine. (i.e. just the 19 alleles)  We would be thinking in terms of identical twins then.

I don't follow for the moment... What do you mean?

[Robittybob1]

Hmmm.
The amelo sex allele is considered separately from the other alleles, and isn't one of the ones counted as within the 10, 13 or 15 markers within which there are variations beyond establishing whether the sample belongs to a male/ female, as fare as I'm aware.

You are right but that one allele is an immediate in or out regardless how many of the others match IMO.

If the evidence sample is X Y and the reference sample is Y (Madeleine's) then it must be a male or a mix with a male to start with.
I think if the suspect is a male but the DNA being tested is from a female there is not much point in considering the rest of the alleles.  I might be wrong but it seems logical to me.

[Robittybob1]

Forget the sex marker... that's in addition: it's not one of the 10 markers.  It determines the sex of the potential suspect / victim. Male or female.

I don't count the sex alleles either.  I don't count them but consider them important when I look at the mix, either male and female or all female.
With the pressure coming on Kate during the arguido interviews one would wonder if the DNA mix wasn't an all female affair.

[Robittybob1]

I don't follow for the moment... What do you mean?

It was the hypothetical pure sample from Madeleine.  How would it get under the boot mat in the hire car?  OK if they had a flat tire or wiped up a spill and lifted the mat then Cells could get underneath the mat.
So it is possible for sure, but less likely than a mixed sample from the upper surface.  Any dust in the car would have all sorts of DNA in it, but generally found on a surface not under a mat.

[Robittybob1]

Late edit: With the pressure coming on Kate during the arguido interviews one would wonder if the DNA mix wasn't an all female affair.

[Carana]

It was the hypothetical pure sample from Madeleine.  How would it get under the boot mat in the hire car?  OK if they had a flat tire or wiped up a spill and lifted the mat then Cells could get underneath the mat.
So it is possible for sure, but less likely than a mixed sample from the upper surface.  Any dust in the car would have all sorts of DNA in it, but generally found on a surface not under a mat.

I don't know what you mean by "under the boot", nor what you source is from the files.

[Robittybob1]

I don't know what you mean by "under the boot", nor what you source is from the files.

Under the mat that covers the boot, as in "under the boot mat".  Am I wrong about that impression too?  Where did the swab get sourced from?  I'll need to do some research on this.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
11 - It "marked" the right lower lateral part of the inside of the boot of vehicle 59-DA-27 (cf. page 2187 and/or annex 88);

and DNA
"It should be stressed that the option towards that Laboratory was and remains obvious taking its prestige, its independence and its scientific reputation into account, although on an initial approach there seemed to be the possibility of compatibility between MADELEINE'S DNA profile and some of the collected residues (of which those that existed in the Renault Scenic vehicle that was rented by the McCann couple were in great quantity), taking the contents of the fax that is reproduced below exactly as it appears in the files, into account (pages 2620 and following)"
"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline McCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B

A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeline has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/conclusion."

So I believe we are looking for the location that swabz 3A and 3B originated.

[Robittybob1]

3A comes from the lounge
3B  ALSO comes from the lounge
"3A. Stain on the floor collected using a dry swab.
3B. Stain on the floor collected using a swab, wet with distilled water."  [My note: both from lounge]

THE ONE FROM THE BOOT HAD ANOTHER NUMBER
"This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.
From document called Madeleine's DNA http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

"In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.

In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components. "

So far only isolated it down to the "boot area of the vehicle". 

From a report by John Lowe  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

[My note: 3A comes from the lounge]
An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive; it is not possible attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

[My note: 3B  ALSO comes from the lounge] 
A low level LCN DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3b). In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that Madeleine McCann contributed DNA to this result.

[My note: THE ONE FROM THE BOOT HAD ANOTHER NUMBER]
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. In my opinion this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation.

[Robittybob1]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area. "
[My note: We'd better look at this too.]

[Carana]

3A comes from the lounge
3B from the boot area. 
"This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.
From document called Madeleine's DNA http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

"In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.

In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components. "

Rob, I think that you may have got a bit confused. Swabs 3A and 3B were both taken from the floor behind the sofa in 5A at the same spot. The difference is that one was a dry swab and the other was soaked in water.



"3A - Stain on the floor recovered with a Dry swab;
3B - Stain on the floor recovered with swab with distilled water"

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm#p8p2204

[Carana]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area. "
[My note: We'd better look at this too.]

Read the report again, Rob. Swabs 3A and 3B refer to the flat. Nothing to do with the boot of the car.

[Carana]

3A comes from the lounge
3B  ALSO comes from the lounge
"3A. Stain on the floor collected using a dry swab.
3B. Stain on the floor collected using a swab, wet with distilled water."  [My note: both from lounge]

THE ONE FROM THE BOOT HAD ANOTHER NUMBER
"This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.
From document called Madeleine's DNA http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

"In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.

In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components. "

So far only isolated it down to the "boot area of the vehicle". 

From a report by John Lowe  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

[My note: 3A comes from the lounge]
An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive; it is not possible attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

[My note: 3B  ALSO comes from the lounge] 
A low level LCN DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3b). In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that Madeleine McCann contributed DNA to this result.

[My note: THE ONE FROM THE BOOT HAD ANOTHER NUMBER]
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. In my opinion this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation.

Re my underlined bits: Hallelujah! Yes, that is what I've been trying to say: they had nothing to do with the boot.

[Robittybob1]

Rob, I think that you may have got a bit confused. Swabs 3A and 3B were both taken from the floor behind the sofa in 5A at the same spot. The difference is that one was a dry swab and the other was soaked in water.



"3A - Stain on the floor recovered with a Dry swab;
3B - Stain on the floor recovered with swab with distilled water"

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm#p8p2204

I had already corrected that thanks. 

Do you know the swab number of the boot samples then?