Are the cadaver alerts evidence

[barrier]

Are you saying you have looked for the science papers on the subject?

Hi and thanks for the reply,the Oesterhelweg paper specifically mention two males their ages being 60,and 63,whilst realising this is unlikely to be the only paper on the subject have there been any other studies? and what ages of the cadavers.

[Mr Gray]

Hi all new here,but a question keeps popping in my mind and have not seen any paper that seems to have included it,this 90 mins that on average a cadaver must be dead for to develop cadaver odour what is this based on,does say a person who has died and was in advanced years produce the cadaver odour quicker than say some one in the prime of their life say in their 20's and 30's,also does a immature child who is far from puberty and thus their organs and body mass are a lot smaller produce cadaver odour far quicker than a fully grown adult,what is the 90 mins based on?

It seems it is quicker in children and slower in the elderly but I don't have any figures

[Robittybob1]

It seems it is quicker in children and slower in the elderly but I don't have any figures

How did you work that out? 

[Brietta]

Hi and thanks for the reply,the Oesterhelweg paper specifically mention two males their ages being 60,and 63,whilst realising this is unlikely to be the only paper on the subject have there been any other studies? and what ages of the cadavers.

I would imagine mention of the respective ages of the subjects had more to do with the availability and permissions involved as opposed to the age sex or condition of the deceased persons and was mentioned to keep the record straight.

[Robittybob1]

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0095107 may have answers.

Use Google scholar and there are many papers on the topic.

[barrier]

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0095107 may have answers.

Use Google scholar and there are many papers on the topic.

That particular piece uses pigs,it also say's

Pig carcasses are considered an acceptable model in decomposition studies due to their physiological and biochemical similarities  and are often used due to ethical, legal and economic restrictions. 

Which is all very well but pigs don't live into their 90's.

[barrier]

It seems it is quicker in children and slower in the elderly but I don't have any figures

So in reality you don't know.

[barrier]

Cadaver odour takes 30 mins to develop

Is this for a child?

[Robittybob1]

That particular piece uses pigs,it also say's

Which is all very well but pigs don't live into their 90's.

I can't imagine anyone getting funding to do studies on cadaver odour emanating from 90 year olds.  That will remain a known unknown for a long time yet.

[barrier]

I can't imagine anyone getting funding to do studies on cadaver odour emanating from 90 year olds.  That will remain a known unknown for a long time yet.

Also its unlikely that there would be on a child,so this 90 minutes malarky can only be used as a guide and only that,and because of that saying that a body could not have lain in 5a on the night of the 3/05/2007 because it takes 90 minutes for cadaver odour to occur is also wide of the mark,not that I'm advocating one did.

[Robittybob1]

Also its unlikely that there would be on a child,so this 90 minutes malarky can only be used as a guide and only that,and because of that saying that a body could not have lain in 5a on the night of the 3/05/2007 because it takes 90 minutes for cadaver odour to occur is also wide of the mark,not that I'm advocating one did.

I said that 6 months ago (thereabouts) I recalled reading a study on this topic and that was the recalled result.  I will endeavour to relocate it but if you find it first please let us know.

[Robittybob1]

Finally something along the right track
Cadaver Scent project
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
"PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.

You will have to read it fully to see if it answers your question.

With the extended time interval between the body deceasing (3 May 2007) and the cadaver dog search several months later (in August 2007, I think) the period that the cadaver must have been deceased for would be unlikely to be the minimum time detected in this study, and from looking at the evidence and possible scenarios I would say 2 hours is the maximum time interval available.

[ferryman]

The relevance of the German carpet-square experiment to PdL is that it was an experiment that relied on the principle of cross-contamination.

The bodies of the deceased males were wrapped in thin cotton sheets to simulate a layer of clothing, then the carpets were passed underneath and close to, but not touching, the buttock of either (deceased) man for lengths of time that varied.

Despite absence of actual contact with the body, the carpet-squares were still impregnated with a death-scent.

At PdL, there was zero regard to the principle of cross-contamination. 

[Robittybob1]

....

At PdL, there was zero regard to the principle of cross-contamination.

In what way was cross-contamination not regarded?  I agree piling all the clothes into a cardboard box was going to cause a degree of  cross-contamination but they didn't stick a cadaver in the boxes as well.  So at best they get an alert that has no evidential value for there were no tests done on the clothing or on Cuddle Cat.

[Mr Gray]

The alerts were never important
What they wanted was real evidence
They didn't find any