Author Topic: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?  (Read 54628 times)

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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2017, 10:53:00 AM »
You know this ... how?

Are you for real ???

Offline Brietta

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2017, 10:58:33 AM »
Are you for real ???

You said ...

"So, just to remind you, everything was set in motion when the Mccann's left their children in unlocked accomodation, with infrequent , short checks, for several nights in a row."

I asked how you know this ... a perfectly reasonable question which should be deserving of a reasonable answer.

My question still stands.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2017, 11:01:02 AM »
Was it a stupid and unbelievably regrettable thing they both did, yes it was. Are they going to be haunted by their actions for the rest of their lives, I would suspect they both will. If they could, with hindsight turn back the clock I strongly suspect they would.

However, as far as I can determine, their actions were without malice or intent to harm their children. It's a tragic mistake and they paid the heaviest price any parent could pay. To compound this they can only live in hope that one day she will be found, until then for all of them, there will be no closure and that I think has to be the hardest thing any parent, regardless of their actions has to live with.

That poor choice and judgement was ten years ago and it happened, whether or not you want to lay the initial blame at her parents feet has somewhat paled to insignificance now because it has no bearing on the investigation and finding her.

If we for a moment suppose that Madeleine had been identified and was stolen to order, a committed abductor with necessary support would have grabbed her at some other point I think it's fair to postulate. We won't ever know until she is found.

When it comes to this topic I just don't see the validity of pointing fingers at her parents for the position they now find themselves in.

The problem is their 'mistake' was so stupid it's hard for some to believe that anyone could really be so stupid. None of the group look or sound like intellectual giants, but even their friends locked their doors.
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stephen25000

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Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2017, 11:06:01 AM »
You said ...

"So, just to remind you, everything was set in motion when the Mccann's left their children in unlocked accomodation, with infrequent , short checks, for several nights in a row."

I asked how you know this ... a perfectly reasonable question which should be deserving of a reasonable answer.

My question still stands.

This question has been discussed and answered on numerous occasions.

The McCann's endangered their children by leaving them alone, and it was totally unnecessary.

During one of these periods Madeleine 'disappeared'.

Now, let's hear you answer some of my questions.

1. Why have you never criticized the Mccann's behaviour ?

By the way, any refusal to answer that question will lead to an almost inevitable conclusion for other people, and since you have refused to answer the same one, when I have asked you before, I have already made mine some time ago.

Offline The Singularity

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2017, 11:23:29 AM »
It was elementary commonsense, not to do what they did.

Likewise, the statement that they felt self in the resort falls down, with one simple aspect of their behaviour, locking the apartment during the daytime.

As to 'abduction'...................................

Yes commons sense does tend to err on the side of security and caution however the difference between locking the doors in the daytime and leaving them unlocked in the evening are two different things to me.

Locking the doors during the daytime was a common sense measure to protect their possessions. Leaving the door unlocked in the evening was done to protect their children. And what I mean by that is in case the children, most likely Madeleine, had an urgent need to leave the apartment.

I recall vaguely Mr or Mrs McCann saying that they dropped their guard significantly because they felt the resort was safe. Whereas I can understand this particular mind set, it is not something I would choose to do. I am more than aware that the Portuguese people are very friendly and extremely family orientated but like in any society, there will always be those people who seek to exploit such things.

With regards to abduction. I keep a very open mind on this and feel this scenario is most likely because Scotland Yard are taking their investigation in this direction. I have read Mr Amaral's book so I am familiar with the tragic fatal accident and ensuing cover up he puts forward. My only concern with Mr Amaral's findings and conclusions is that if such an incident had taken place, I would expect there to be quite significant evidence indicating it. As such I am not aware of such convincing evidence, just as there is no convincing evidence that an abductor took Madeleine from the apartment.

Her disappearance remains a complete mystery

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2017, 11:33:18 AM »
Yes commons sense does tend to err on the side of security and caution however the difference between locking the doors in the daytime and leaving them unlocked in the evening are two different things to me.

Locking the doors during the daytime was a common sense measure to protect their possessions. Leaving the door unlocked in the evening was done to protect their children. And what I mean by that is in case the children, most likely Madeleine, had an urgent need to leave the apartment.

I recall vaguely Mr or Mrs McCann saying that they dropped their guard significantly because they felt the resort was safe. Whereas I can understand this particular mind set, it is not something I would choose to do. I am more than aware that the Portuguese people are very friendly and extremely family orientated but like in any society, there will always be those people who seek to exploit such things.

With regards to abduction. I keep a very open mind on this and feel this scenario is most likely because Scotland Yard are taking their investigation in this direction. I have read Mr Amaral's book so I am familiar with the tragic fatal accident and ensuing cover up he puts forward. My only concern with Mr Amaral's findings and conclusions is that if such an incident had taken place, I would expect there to be quite significant evidence indicating it. As such I am not aware of such convincing evidence, just as there is no convincing evidence that an abductor took Madeleine from the apartment.

Her disappearance remains a complete mystery

Anyone suggesting that a door is left unlocked to allow a small child to get out of an apartment onto a dangerous balcony is forgetting that the resort warned guests not to allow children to use the balcony without supervision. Not that any parent with any sense would.
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stephen25000

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Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2017, 11:33:19 AM »
Yes commons sense does tend to err on the side of security and caution however the difference between locking the doors in the daytime and leaving them unlocked in the evening are two different things to me.

Locking the doors during the daytime was a common sense measure to protect their possessions. Leaving the door unlocked in the evening was done to protect their children. And what I mean by that is in case the children, most likely Madeleine, had an urgent need to leave the apartment.

I recall vaguely Mr or Mrs McCann saying that they dropped their guard significantly because they felt the resort was safe. Whereas I can understand this particular mind set, it is not something I would choose to do. I am more than aware that the Portuguese people are very friendly and extremely family orientated but like in any society, there will always be those people who seek to exploit such things.

With regards to abduction. I keep a very open mind on this and feel this scenario is most likely because Scotland Yard are taking their investigation in this direction. I have read Mr Amaral's book so I am familiar with the tragic fatal accident and ensuing cover up he puts forward. My only concern with Mr Amaral's findings and conclusions is that if such an incident had taken place, I would expect there to be quite significant evidence indicating it. As such I am not aware of such convincing evidence, just as there is no convincing evidence that an abductor took Madeleine from the apartment.

Her disappearance remains a complete mystery

Logic would dictate, not leaving children in a foreign country, in a language they did not know.


' Locking the doors during the daytime was a common sense measure to protect their possessions. Leaving the door unlocked in the evening was done to protect their children. And what I mean by that is in case the children, most likely Madeleine, had an urgent need to leave the apartment. '

Haven't we been told that the McCann's do not accept the theory pronounced by Mark Williams-Thomas last week, so that blows that one on the head. Also, are we seriously expected to believe that three children, all under three years old, could be expected to deal with an emergency.  Your inference that leaving the apartment unlocked was 'to protect the children' on any basis , is highly illogical.

In fact, the McCann's behaviour per se, was rampantly illogical, and was a mark of their arrogance, as was the other members of the group in leaving their children.

As regards Amaral's theory, there are also other explanations as to why potential residue from a body would not have been found.

Offline The Singularity

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2017, 11:58:44 AM »
The problem is their 'mistake' was so stupid it's hard for some to believe that anyone could really be so stupid. None of the group look or sound like intellectual giants, but even their friends locked their doors.

Yes I agree, a very stupid mistake to make given the seriousness of the consequences, but nevertheless, a mistake. There is nothing that I am aware of that indicates or even hints towards this poor lack of wisdom was done with any malice or intent.

Offline The Singularity

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2017, 12:09:53 PM »
Logic would dictate, not leaving children in a foreign country, in a language they did not know.

Fully agree with you however logic on this night appears to have sat this one out or else we wouldn't be in the position we are now with the investigation.


Quote
' Locking the doors during the daytime was a common sense measure to protect their possessions. Leaving the door unlocked in the evening was done to protect their children. And what I mean by that is in case the children, most likely Madeleine, had an urgent need to leave the apartment. '

Haven't we been told that the McCann's do not accept the theory pronounced by Mark Williams-Thomas last week, so that blows that one on the head. Also, are we seriously expected to believe that three children, all under three years old, could be expected to deal with an emergency.  Your inference that leaving the apartment unlocked was 'to protect the children' on any basis , is highly illogical.

This is why I mentioned Madeleine specifically, the twins are too young, I agree. Madeleine, despite being so young had a chance to be able to get out and raise an alarm in the event of something urgent. It is by no means an ideal situation, I grant you, however given who was in the apartment, Madeleine was the only one who could possibly do this.

Quote
In fact, the McCann's behaviour per se, was rampantly illogical, and was a mark of their arrogance, as was the other members of the group in leaving their children.

They made some very poor decisions that have cost them dearly, I don't feel the need to go as far to classify them as being "rampant illogical".

Quote
As regards Amaral's theory, there are also other explanations as to why potential residue from a body would not have been found.

Would you mind expanding on this because I was under the impression that there were no cleaning products efficient enough to remove such evidence, nor did anyone have the time to conduct the deep clean necessary so I would be very interested to see what your thoughts are on this.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2017, 12:20:25 PM »
Yes I agree, a very stupid mistake to make given the seriousness of the consequences, but nevertheless, a mistake. There is nothing that I am aware of that indicates or even hints towards this poor lack of wisdom was done with any malice or intent.

Yes, mistakes are often only obvious in hindsight. I prefer to see what they said they did as a massive error of judgement. That brings in the notion of foresight, something that all parents need to possess and to use.

Did they think the child was capable of opening the childgate? Did they think she was capable of negotiating those steps? Did they tell her where they would be? Unless the answer to all those questions is 'yes' then leaving the door open for her makes no sense.
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2017, 12:30:45 PM »
...

Locking the doors during the daytime was a common sense measure to protect their possessions. Leaving the door unlocked in the evening was done to protect their children. And what I mean by that is in case the children, most likely Madeleine, had an urgent need to leave the apartment.

...
(From memory)  In the programme made in 2009 when Gerry returned to Luz, his explanation was that the patio doors were used (hence unlocked) because of a worry that use of the front door might waken the children.  With no mention of Madeleine being able to get out.
What's up, old man?

Offline jassi

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2017, 12:37:57 PM »
(From memory)  In the programme made in 2009 when Gerry returned to Luz, his explanation was that the patio doors were used (hence unlocked) because of a worry that use of the front door might waken the children.  With no mention of Madeleine being able to get out.

Perhaps by that time the danger to them  of 'woke and wandered' had been realised and was thus airbrushed.
From what I recall, this program was very much a McCann production.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline The Singularity

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2017, 12:43:32 PM »
Anyone suggesting that a door is left unlocked to allow a small child to get out of an apartment onto a dangerous balcony is forgetting that the resort warned guests not to allow children to use the balcony without supervision. Not that any parent with any sense would.

To be fair, I suspect the McCanns never even considered such a horrendous thing would happen, let alone Madeleine having the need for whatever reason to leave the apartment unaccompanied or seen doing so. So when it came to common sense health and safety guidelines, well they weren't observed.

I have seen many parents question the way the McCanns behaved, highlighting their choices and then comparing them to their own choices for raising their children. Parents do raise their children differently, and there is no definitive rule book for doing so.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #178 on: February 28, 2017, 01:20:43 PM »
A mystery is prime suspect Efits hidden for many years. A mystery is why there were more regular checks on the night she disappeared. A mystery is why the parents didn't call the police straight away knowing she had been abducted. A mystery is deleted mobile log history within 24 hours. A mystery is paedo gangs being blamed within a few hours of her disappearance by a witness. A mystery is a key turned into not a key. A mystery is a timeline that doesn't add up. A mystery is parents not answering ALL questions to move the investigation forward. A mystery is CC being washed. A mystery is a car boot that was always seen open. A mystery is the Smiths saw long sleeves. A mystery is a twin reported to say Maddy's jammies. A mystery is getting keys to the local church. A mystery is certain statements not seen by Amaral. A mystery is Pamela Fenn hearing crying for 75 minutes when the parents claim they were in the apartment. A mystery is why Madeleine said why weren't you there when WE cried last night and they went out again and left them alone. A mystery is how Tannnerman kept changing and morphed into George Harrison. A mystery is how Jane Tanner passed two men without being seen. A mystery is fingerprints found on the window. A mystery is the cleaner seeing a cot in the parents bedroom. A mystery is many dog alerts. A mystery is parents not being present the first time Madeleine sailed (she cried). A mystery is why they were the only ones missing from the group at the beach. A mystery is a visit that doesn't add up. A mystery is a moving ajar door. A mystery is Kate sleeping in a spare bed for the first time. A mystery is the first visual check of the week on Madeleine (last time seen) in an unsecured apartment.

A mystery? No just questions that have answers.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:27:43 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Were the McCanns innocent in the eyes of the law?
« Reply #179 on: February 28, 2017, 01:30:06 PM »
Fully agree with you however logic on this night appears to have sat this one out or else we wouldn't be in the position we are now with the investigation.


This is why I mentioned Madeleine specifically, the twins are too young, I agree. Madeleine, despite being so young had a chance to be able to get out and raise an alarm in the event of something urgent. It is by no means an ideal situation, I grant you, however given who was in the apartment, Madeleine was the only one who could possibly do this.

They made some very poor decisions that have cost them dearly, I don't feel the need to go as far to classify them as being "rampant illogical".

Would you mind expanding on this because I was under the impression that there were no cleaning products efficient enough to remove such evidence, nor did anyone have the time to conduct the deep clean necessary so I would be very interested to see what your thoughts are on this.

I certainly don't agree that a child just under the age of 4 could wake up and handle an emergency , rationally and logically. Adults often don't.

As to 'cleaning products', that was not part of my rationale, and after all, I would not wish to type something on an open forum which might  be construed as libel. The lack of traces of a body, does not mean compounds resulting from decomposition, could not be detected.