Author Topic: Forensics  (Read 8860 times)

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Offline Nine

Forensics
« on: March 31, 2017, 08:57:41 PM »
There is not a lot know about exactly how the forensics where carried out in this case...

Longwood Lane.. where we have Andrew Mott with his Broom Handle trying to stop Joanna Yeates body from thawing..

A lane where a body apparently lay undiscovered for 8 days, which many local people have said they can't see possible..

When I look at the photographs that are available for Longwood Lane and the Police carrying out their searches I suddenly started to question it..

We have Photographs that I have attached, showing police officer searching... searching for what??  I'd of expected them to have plastic gloves on, but they haven't.. they are handling Forensic paper bags with bare hands..(3rd Picture) they have broom handles and rakes, but no one with them to photograph where possibly the evidence they recover has been recovered from??

I would have imagined that they would have used markers or flags to indicate where the evidence or any materials they come across lay, so someone whom is suited up can handle this important evidence..

What it reminds me of is when you have a team of searches looking for a missing person and not a team of Forensic scientists/ specialists collecting important evidence from in and around the second scene of crime..

The other really noticable thing is the LACK of SNOW......

What are they looking for???? or is it for the media????

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Offline Nine

Re: Forensics
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 01:00:53 AM »
Re-reading I find is always of interest... I skip too many times... The wording is of the utmost importance and I will say again don't skim...

I have read article time and time again, and believe I have taken the information in, when truly I haven't, and probably most other people haven't either..

I will quote again..

Quote
Tests showed that both Miss Yeates's and Tabak's DNA were recovered from her body and that it was statistically one million times more likely it was their DNA than others.

It is my opinion that the answer was quiet clever on this... "One Million times  that it was there's more likely that it was theirs!!

Well... that's not quiet an untrue... because once you introduce Joanna Yeates DNA then the likely hood that it's One Million times more likely that it was theirs is fairish...

The Defence didn't challenge this as far as I am aware! (They should have!)

Quote
Tabak's and another unidentified person's DNA was also found on Miss Yeates's jeans - behind her knees - which would have been consistent with Tabak carrying her body, the court was told.

The question is who is theirs???????

(1): Joanna Yeates

(2): The Unidentified persons DNA!!!!!!!

It cannot be Dr Vincent Tabak's DNA she's refering too because later she says"...

Quote
Ms Lennen said the statistical interpretation of the results from Miss Yeates's jeans showed that it was 1,100 times more likely that the DNA was from Vincent Tabak and another person, rather than two unknown people unrelated to the defendant.

AND ANOTHER PERSON!!!!

When it comes to Dr Vincent Tabak he is on a scale of 1/1000, which is NO MATCH AT ALL....!!!!!

Who is this other person she keeps refering too?????

1/1000 is an extremely small number when we are talking DNA, we want definative proof!!!!

Why are THEY NOT BOTHERED by the extra DNA PROFILE???????  That is One BIG Question!!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/joanna-yeates-killer-confessed-to-chaplain-2372235.html


Edit.....  One other thing they didn't clarify with THE OTHER DNA PROFILE that they found...

WAS IT MALE OR FEMALE??????

I don't remember anyone asking that question!!



Offline mrswah

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 08:53:59 AM »
There are known to be problems with the reliability of "low copy" or enhanced DNA samples.

www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/464347a.html

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpPkmDeS3Dg

I believe that, in the Joanna Yeates case, the samples were used up in the enhancing process, meaning that the results could not be confirmed or challenged.  This is (IMO) very concerning.

As for there being DNA samples from another person on Joanna's body, this is not surprising. She lived with her partner, she socialised with friends----DNA is easily transferable. One would have expected there to have been DNA samples from several people on her clothing/body.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:04:55 AM by mrswah »

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 09:08:35 AM »
Before opening the link below, try to guess from the following alone whether (1) Counsel, and (2) the expert witness, are (A) for the Prosecution, or (B) for the Defence:

Cross-examining the witness, Counsel asked if DNA was found in the car boot matching any unidentified persons.

Witness: “No there was not.”

For the benefit of the jury, Counsel clarified that scientists cannot say whether the blood in the boot of the car was a result of direct contact.

Counsel: “What if we knew the body would have been placed in a cover that you would put a bicycle in? If the cover was done up that would prevent the transfer of DNA, unless DNA got on the cover of the cycle bag?”

Witness: “Either that, or the blood was sufficient enough to seep through the cycle bag.”

Counsel: “If at Longwood Lane the body was taken out of the cycle bag and the cycle bag put back in the boot, any blood transfer onto the bicycle bag either directly from the victim or the hands of the defendant would be a candidate for the DNA in the boot?”

Witness: “Yes it could be.”

Counsel: “If a cycle bag was used to transfer the body from Canynge Road to Longwood Lane and that the cycle bag had previously been used to store the bicycle of the defendant then it may well be that the cycle bag itself would contain DNA from him, which in turn could be transferred to the victim – if he had her in that bag?”

Witness: “Yes that is possible.”

Counsel also speculated that DNA on the body and jeans could have been from an attempt to put the body over a wall.

Witness: “It could not be discounted.”

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/joanna-yeates-murder-trial-did-killer-carry-jo/story-13598784-detail/story.html
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:10:41 AM by Leonora »

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 09:18:04 AM »
There are known to be problems with the reliability of "low copy" or enhanced DNA samples.

www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/464347a.html

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpPkmDeS3Dg

I believe that, in the Joanna Yeates case, the samples were used up in the enhancing process, meaning that the results could not be confirmed or challenged.  This is (IMO) very concerning.

As for there being DNA samples from another person on Joanna's body, this is not surprising. She lived with her partner, she socialised with friends----DNA is easily transferable. One would have expected there to have been DNA samples from several people on her clothing/body.
While socialising with her friends at the Bristol Ram pub, she sat on a bench with a group of them to drink her cider. If she had been wearing the same jeans and top as she was wearing when her body was found, then any DNA from the seat and the back-rest of the bench would have been transferred to her clothes. While she was in the pub, she went to the LADIES, where any DNA on the seat and back rest of the WC she used and the floor in front of it would have been transferred to her clothes and the backs of her knees.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:20:51 AM by Leonora »

Offline Nine

Re: Forensics
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 10:12:20 AM »
Before opening the link below, try to guess from the following alone whether (1) Counsel, and (2) the expert witness, are (A) for the Prosecution, or (B) for the Defence:

Cross-examining the witness, Counsel asked if DNA was found in the car boot matching any unidentified persons.

Witness: “No there was not.”

For the benefit of the jury, Counsel clarified that scientists cannot say whether the blood in the boot of the car was a result of direct contact.

Counsel: “What if we knew the body would have been placed in a cover that you would put a bicycle in? If the cover was done up that would prevent the transfer of DNA, unless DNA got on the cover of the cycle bag?”

Witness: “Either that, or the blood was sufficient enough to seep through the cycle bag.”

Counsel: “If at Longwood Lane the body was taken out of the cycle bag and the cycle bag put back in the boot, any blood transfer onto the bicycle bag either directly from the victim or the hands of the defendant would be a candidate for the DNA in the boot?”

Witness: “Yes it could be.”

Counsel: “If a cycle bag was used to transfer the body from Canynge Road to Longwood Lane and that the cycle bag had previously been used to store the bicycle of the defendant then it may well be that the cycle bag itself would contain DNA from him, which in turn could be transferred to the victim – if he had her in that bag?”

Witness: “Yes that is possible.”

Counsel also speculated that DNA on the body and jeans could have been from an attempt to put the body over a wall.

Witness: “It could not be discounted.”

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/joanna-yeates-murder-trial-did-killer-carry-jo/story-13598784-detail/story.html


Yes Leonora...  Of course it was the Defence who said this.. they have discredited their own client throughout this trial...

The defence always helps the prosecution (IMO)

The body would not be bleeding... he was suppose taken her to his flat, the blood would stop circulating in her body once death had occured, the blood was apparently a spot found on the seal of the boot...

This was confirmed in a video by DCI Phil Jones, I think it was the Judge Rinder one, but I'd have to check my old posts to find the transcript and link.

If it was a spot it would have to be big enough to see with the naked eye as to be able for them to collect it from the seal.. If it was large enough to see with the naked eye... then WHY wasn't it photographed????

Why wasn't there a photograhed in court of the seal where the blood was apparently found...
Also was the blood sample marked that it was from the seal of the boot or just the boot in general?????

This is the type of QUESTION the defence should have been asking Lyndsey Lennen!!!  (IMO)


I'll try find the post and put a link here :


EDIT:...      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7613.msg368393;topicseen#msg368393

Offline Nine

Re: Forensics
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 12:05:43 PM »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343462/Joanna-Yeates-murder-Police-hope-frozen-DNA-sample-body-solve-murder.html

                                                 "Could DNA Traces Unlock Mystery"

Quote
A Sample of DNA found on Joanna Yeates body could be a crucial discovery in the hunt for her killer.....
It is understood that Police Forensic Specialist are working round the clock to find out to whom it belongs.

The sample was taken from Miss Yeates body soon After it was dumped at the side of a road on Christmas Morning.
Althought the freezing temperatures meant post-mortem examination results were serverally delayed, crime experts say as the cold weather provided excellent conditions for preserving the DNA evidence.
The sample is being tested for a match against DNA previously stored by police... as well as against samples that have been taken during the investigation..It is understood several potential DNA matches were tested within hours of the find.

The revelation came the day after the only man arrested over the killing so far was released,Chris Jefferies 65 spent three daysin police custody before being freed pending further inquires,and has had his flat two floors abovethe one rented to Miss Yeatesand her boyfriend turned upside down by forensic teams.
The forensic examination at Mr Jefferies flat continued Yesterday, with two crime scene investigators.. entering carrying brown evidence bags.

Scientists have also examined at least three vehicle kept near the building in which Miss Yeates lived.
This followed an immediate and intensive inch by inch search of the area surrounding the spot where her body was discovered on a roadside in Failand outside Bristol.


(1): Which 3 vehicles had they tested????

(2): Forensics are being carried out at CJ's.. did they have the keys to the other flats??

(3): The sample is being tested against DNA already stored..

So it's the 3rd January 2011 and we have the DNA turned around, not like DCI Phil Jones says that it was on the 20th January they got the DNA results and the Crime Watch program saying it took weeks..

Obviously it didn't!!!!



Offline Nine

Re: Forensics
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 12:17:27 PM »
This from Lyndsey Lennen in an Interview with the Guardian on:... Tuesday 17 January 2012 19.45 GMT


Dr Vincent Tabak is in prison at this point so I believe she freely states information we were NOT aware of at trial.. I'll say again...
How could she have Dr Vincent Tabaks BLACK COAT at this point???
How could she have the SUSPECTS clothing?????? (plural)

Also she says: 
Quote
There were DNA components that matched one of the suspects, Vincent Tabak."

Whom is the other persons DNA????
Who is the other SUSPECT????

Quote
Joanna Yeates
It started as a missing person inquiry on December 18, 2010, says Lindsey Lennen, a body fluids and DNA specialist (who, like many forensic scientists, says the work is "all I ever wanted to do"). The team started by examining items from Joanna's home, looking for foreign DNA. Then on Christmas Day, Yeates was found dead, on a country road.

A colleague went down to supervise the removal of her clothing and preserve any body fluids: "The body was frozen, so that was quite tricky." Under the media glare, the work was flat-out: clothing, swabs, suspect's clothing, all analysed and turned round in 48 hours.

"Eventually, we found something," Lennen says. "On swabs and tapes from her breasts, and tapes from three areas of her jeans. There were DNA components that matched one of the suspects, Vincent Tabak." But there wasn't enough, of enough quality, to evaluate – perhaps because of the high salt levels where the body was found, following heavy snowfall.

So the team deployed an LGC technique known as DNA SenCE, which purifies, concentrates and enhances otherwise unusable DNA: "We couldn't say whether the DNA was from saliva, or semen, or even touch. But we could say that the probability of it not being a match with Tabak was less than one in a billion."

With the killer's confession, Lennen's DNA evidence was not further tested. "It happens, in court," she says. "You get called biased, in the police's pay. You have to tell the truth, not stretch what you have. If you don't know which of two alternatives is more likely, you must say so."


She states that it was all TURNED AROUND IN 48 HOURS!!


A billion to one???? she doesn't say THAT in court... she says 1/1000

High levels of salt??? Does snow have a high salt content???? Not that I'm aware of.... But GRIT on the roads does!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/17/csi-oxford-lgc-forensics


EDIT:....   
Quote
A colleague went down to supervise the removal of her clothing and preserve any body fluids: "The body was frozen, so that was quite tricky."

I hadn't really thought about that... but how would he supervise the removal of her clothing if she was frozen in a foetal position??

Also wouldn't that be Dr Delaney department when he had her at the Mortuary ?? Surely he has the expertise and Knowledge on how to remove and bag any evidence on a victims body before he carries out the Post Mortem!!!!


Offline Nine

Re: Forensics
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 12:58:45 PM »
While socialising with her friends at the Bristol Ram pub, she sat on a bench with a group of them to drink her cider. If she had been wearing the same jeans and top as she was wearing when her body was found, then any DNA from the seat and the back-rest of the bench would have been transferred to her clothes. While she was in the pub, she went to the LADIES, where any DNA on the seat and back rest of the WC she used and the floor in front of it would have been transferred to her clothes and the backs of her knees.


Yes... that is also a possibility... But the other DNA profile could also be the killers DNA whether it was Male or Female..

They never CLARIFIED whether it was male or female no matter how it came to be on Joanna Yeates body!!!!


Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2017, 01:04:21 PM »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343462/Joanna-Yeates-murder-Police-hope-frozen-DNA-sample-body-solve-murder.html

                                                 "Could DNA Traces Unlock Mystery"


(1): Which 3 vehicles had they tested????

(2): Forensics are being carried out at CJ's.. did they have the keys to the other flats??

(3): The sample is being tested against DNA already stored..

So it's the 3rd January 2011 and we have the DNA turned around, not like DCI Phil Jones says that it was on the 29th January they got the DNA results and the Crime Watch program saying it took weeks..

Obviously it didn't!!!!
This was a landmark story. The Editor himself, accompanied by one of the journalists, went to Avon & Somerset Constabulary in person, to twist the arms of the police to let them publish this exclusive story, you will remember. (Did he fly down from London in a private helicopter?) According to his testimony, Vincent Tabak began to shake in his shoes (and presumably reach for his vodka) when he read this story the next day. LGC alone knew that they had NOT found any DNA from the landlord on the body - so they knew that his precipitate arrest was a sign of something iffy going on in Operation Braid. Their suspicions were confirmed when he was released. So they did what any self-respecting Forensics company would do - they approached the Daily Mail.

Working out which 3 vehicles they had tested is hardly rocket science, Nine. The two cars used by the landlord were taken away with much ado (flashing of cameras and whirring of newsreels). If Joanna's own little Ford Ka hadn't actually been forensically examined, then it was because the 70 officers were too busy sifting rubbish in search of a pizza. That makes 3 doesn't it? They couldn't test Tanja's Renault Megane cos it was in Holland or Aberdeen Road.

The police certainly had keys to the landlord's flat and flat No. 2, as they had banished Vincent and Tanja to Aberdeen Road. I have never seen any evidence that they had keys to the other flats.

Offline Nine

Re: Forensics
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2017, 01:16:04 PM »
This was a landmark story. The Editor himself, accompanied by one of the journalists, went to Avon & Somerset Constabulary in person, to twist the arms of the police to let them publish this exclusive story, you will remember. (Did he fly down from London in a private helicopter?) According to his testimony, Vincent Tabak began to shake in his shoes (and presumably reach for his vodka) when he read this story the next day. LGC alone knew that they had NOT found any DNA from the landlord on the body - so they knew that his precipitate arrest was a sign of something iffy going on in Operation Braid. Their suspicions were confirmed when he was released. So they did what any self-respecting Forensics company would do - they approached the Daily Mail.

Working out which 3 vehicles they had tested is hardly rocket science, Nine. The two cars used by the landlord were taken away with much ado (flashing of cameras and whirring of newsreels). If Joanna's own little Ford Ka hadn't actually been forensically examined, then it was because the 70 officers were too busy sifting rubbish in search of a pizza. That makes 3 doesn't it? They couldn't test Tanja's Renault Megane cos it was in Holland or Aberdeen Road.

The police certainly had keys to the landlord's flat and flat No. 2, as they had banished Vincent and Tanja to Aberdeen Road. I have never seen any evidence that they had keys to the other flats.


So where are the pictures of Joanna Yeates Ford Ka???  surely they would have photographs of the car if they had examined it??

And they definitley should have examined it if only to rule Greg out....

So again there is MISSING evidence (IMO)


Has anyone managed to find the car history of the Ford Ka... maybe with the FOI act at the DVLC, maybe it will give more information as  to what happened to it...




Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2017, 01:25:18 PM »
This from Lyndsey Lennen in an Interview with the Guardian on:... Tuesday 17 January 2012 19.45 GMT


Dr Vincent Tabak is in prison at this point so I believe she freely states information we were NOT aware of at trial.. I'll say again...
How could she have Dr Vincent Tabaks BLACK COAT at this point???
How could she have the SUSPECTS clothing?????? (plural)

Also she says: 
Whom is the other persons DNA????
Who is the other SUSPECT????


She states that it was all TURNED AROUND IN 48 HOURS!!


A billion to one???? she doesn't say THAT in court... she says 1/1000

High levels of salt??? Does snow have a high salt content???? Not that I'm aware of.... But GRIT on the roads does!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/17/csi-oxford-lgc-forensics
Neither in this article, nor in court, did Lyndsey Lennen make any claim to be a fibre analyst, nor to have Vincent Tabak's black coat, either at the time the article was published, nor prior to his arrest. If there really were loose fibres underneath all that snow and salt and blood on Joanna's clothes, then they would have been collected after the clothes had been taken to the forensic laboratory. The police ransacked the apartment at Aberdeen Road and took away Vincent Tabak's mountain bike, his laptop, and whatever else they found of interest, which may have included the black coat. Or he may have put it on when he was taken away. In either case, the police officer who catalogued the items taken from the flat would have looked at the label on the coat, meticulously noted the brand, type and fabric, and been able to telephone these details to Lyndsey Lennen. No special education would have been needed to perform this task.

Although she was not a fibre expert, no special expertise would have been required of Lyndsey Lennen to study the list of fabrics whose fibres had been identified some weeks previously on Joanna's clothes. If she found a match, then I am sure she at once notified the detectives who were still questioning Vincent Tabak. This is of course speculation. She never mentioned fibres in her testimony, and there was no reason why she should. It had already been agreed between the Prosecution and the Defence that the fibres would be "admitted", thereby joining the green fleece, the blood alcohol percentage, the porn, and the prostitutes, among the long list headed "hearsay-hearsay-hearsay".
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 03:45:08 PM by Leonora »

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017, 01:26:45 PM »

So where are the pictures of Joanna Yeates Ford Ka???  surely they would have photographs of the car if they had examined it??

And they definitley should have examined it if only to rule Greg out....

So again there is MISSING evidence (IMO)

Has anyone managed to find the car history of the Ford Ka... maybe with the FOI act at the DVLC, maybe it will give more information as  to what happened to it...
I have never seen any photos of Joanna's car outside Canynge Road, but this isn't really very surprising. As long as she was still a missing person, the press behaved very respectfully. They did publish photos and even very splendid architectural drawings of 44 Canynge Road, but they don't seem to have paid any attention to any of the parked cars at first. If we knew its registration number, we could find out what happened to it since:

https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla

I don't think we would be considered to have "just cause" if our request was based on the identity of the last known owner.
 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 03:59:38 PM by Leonora »

Offline mrswah

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2017, 01:28:52 PM »
Yes, it is interesting---Joanna's car has never been mentioned anywhere, as far as I can see. Greg had taken it to Sheffield, so perhaps they did not think it needed to be examined, but it is strange that we have never even seen a photograph of it.

I believe the third car the police examined was that of Peter Stanley, another neighbour.

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017, 01:44:50 PM »
Yes, it is interesting---Joanna's car has never been mentioned anywhere, as far as I can see. Greg had taken it to Sheffield, so perhaps they did not think it needed to be examined, but it is strange that we have never even seen a photograph of it.

I believe the third car the police examined was that of Peter Stanley, another neighbour.
On the contrary, the police did NOT take Peter Stanley's Jeep away for examination. They talked to him, they walked round the vehicle admiring it, and they asked him to show them the famous jump leads that he alone possessed. The news media ensured that all the other inhabitants of Canynge Road would know who to turn to in future when they couldn't start their car. But his was not THE THIRD VEHICLE.

If they didn't examine Joanna's car, how could the police eliminate her boyfriend so early on in the investigation, and so publicly? He was the only person to be publicly eliminated, until the landlord was released from bail, long after the dust had settled. The police claimed to have examined the boyfriend's computers, his mobile phone records, and his petrol station receipts, but they never mentioned whether they examined the car he used. Not only did he take it to Sheffield - he also brought it back to Clifton again. So how do you think the police could they eliminate him if they didn't examine the car? What do you think happened to it?